Unplugging from the Matrix (Innovators vs Builders)
Arun: Let's just jump right into it.
so I kind of wanted to start
us out bringing back an old
segment that we haven't gone too
well, the tinfoil hat segment.
Oh, I'm
Vance: all about it.
Adam: It's been a minute.
It's been too long.
It has been too long.
I've still been
Vance: waiting for the merch.
Arun: Oh, that's why I bring it
back because I want the merch.
So let's bring it back.
So you guys heard this concept of,
if you've seen the movie, The Matrix.
Yeah, of course.
Kind of, you know, kind of,
there's this whole talking point
around, are we living in a matrix?
Kind of like, outside of the faith
culture, you know, are we in a
situation where, you know, our 9 to
5 job, our buying houses we can't
afford, you know, credit card loans,
all this, is like, part of the matrix?
And I was kind of curious what
your thoughts on that are.
are people living in the matrix.
Vance: Yeah, basically what you're saying
is that it's kind of muting our lives.
We're not fully awake to what is
possible, even how the world works.
And basically these systems
and structures are keeping us
from really knowing the truth.
Is that what you're saying?
Hmm,
Adam: interesting.
Look, I think some people are plugged in.
Mm hmm.
For sure.
I think that, uh, not virtually
into an actual matrix, but I think
the way that they're living is
certainly a, a matrix centric life.
Um, if you're not doing something
that you're passionate about, you
know, when I, when I apply kingdom
perspective, work is a privilege.
Work is a gift.
The fact that we get to work, that we get
to use our skills, we get to use the craft
and the nature of what God's put within
us to build, to, you know, there's a
famous quote by David Sacks where he says,
you can only live on a yacht for a year.
You know, cause everyone's
trying to work to not work.
And then you go, you don't work and
all these wealthy people who make
it rich, whether it's in the com era
or whatever, they, they, you know,
had an exit from and then they go,
I'm just going to live on a yacht.
Well, after a year, it
gets kind of boring.
You know, there's only so
many things you can do.
And then they end up just going and
doing work because they realize work
actually is It's just a, it's a, it's a
value to have as a worker to be able to
produce something, but it's, it's also
something that gives you mission and
purpose that you are working to build
or you're working towards something
you're contributing to society.
And I think that if, if that is the
orientation of your work, you're
going to have so much enjoyment.
I always tell people, you know,
do something that you, uh, get
out of bed for before your alarm.
Mmm, that you're almost like, man,
let me at it, I can't wait to get up.
But sure, if you're hitting snooze
three times on your alarm and
you're dreading Monday coming and
maybe there's a good indication to
reorient your life and get out of the
Vance: matrix.
I don't think I'm actually that
disciplined, I'm just really excited.
That's good.
I'm excited to get up.
I'm excited to
Adam: tackle the day.
Right, because you know, when you
ever talk to a successful founder,
business person, they inevitably
will say, most often than not,
they'll say, Ah, I'm an early riser.
Now, I don't know.
I agree with that.
I don't know if it is
so much discipline as...
Like, I don't love the process of waking
Vance: up,
Adam: by the way.
Right.
But maybe it is that they're just
very excited to get up and get started
on what they're tackling that day.
Um, so in answer to your question, I do
think the matrix is such a great movie
because the concept people could relate
to, uh, that they were caught in a system.
Um, and I think the reality
is philosophically, I think
there is a matrix for many.
Arun: Yeah, no, I think that's great.
Cause this is actually tying
into where I wanted to chat
about today, which is innovators.
Like what is an innovator and
like kind of how you define that?
Cause a lot of what I've talked
to with some of my friends, I'm
coming from the background of
like, I'm an IC, I'm a builder.
I'm not really in the shape of, or
like I haven't really founded any
companies or anything like that.
But I've had that mindset
of wanting to do that.
Um, but a lot of my friends that
are kind of in this space, still in
like the IC role, we kind of talk
about this idea of breaking out of
the matrix and being your own boss.
But it's interesting that you guys
kind of talk about, um, how It's not
a matter of, you know, you breaking
out and becoming an entrepreneur.
You can be a builder, but if you're
excited about what you're doing,
you can kind of still do that.
So I kind of wanted to contrast the two.
Do you think everybody's meant to be
an innovator or there are builders
and there are innovators and they're
like two separate categories to
Adam: everything?
I think everyone has the potential
to be an innovator, whether you're an
individual contributor, you can still
be an, uh, intrapreneur, you know,
within the organization, uh, you don't
have to be an entrepreneur, uh, meaning
that I'm taking all the risk to go
out and start something from nothing.
I think within an organization, if
there is the scope for you to be
creative and try stuff at the same
time on the, the difference is.
On an entrepreneur level, you have to
earn your stripes to get that ability
to get the privilege to be able to take
risks and try stuff and go off script
within, you know, the, the, I guess the
product that you're actually building,
uh, that you have to earn that, okay?
You can't expect just to start a company
and then get that, that availability.
So you have to prove something,
you have to add value.
As an entrepreneur, you're pretty much
just going to show value as you go,
but all the risk is pretty much on you.
Uh, but I think innovation isn't just.
through starting something.
I think innovation comes through
enhancing something as well.
For sure.
Vance: Yeah.
I think, you know, I got a
couple of thoughts here on the
entrepreneur side of things.
When you think about the matrix, uh,
unplugging from the matrix, there's a
sense of, uh, desiring freedom, right?
To burst anybody's bubble, when you become
an entrepreneur, doesn't necessarily
mean you're quote unquote free.
You just have a new boss, whether that's
your board or if you're bootstrapping
a company, it's your customers, it's
your partners, investors, investors.
And so you always have a boss, okay?
You always report to somebody, you're
always accountable to something if you
want to do something significant, right?
If you're just kind of making enough
money just so that you can eat, maybe,
yeah, you have true freedom, but that
you're not doing anything significant.
Um, in addition to that, I
would go as far to say is that.
If you are a Christian, you have a
responsibility to be an innovator.
I actually believe that, uh, the
people that first revealed Jesus
as king were innovators, right?
The Bible says they were wise men.
Uh, these wise men, if you dig a
little deeper, they were the Magi.
Uh, they were learned men.
They were people that would have been
professors at Harvard and Stanford.
These people were studiers of the stars.
They worshiped fire because of
its utility and its technological
innovative value, right?
These people were considered king makers.
They would be in the cabinets of
empires, like the Persian Empire, and
a ruler couldn't get into their reign
unless they went through the Magi.
And these are the people that actually,
through their pursuit of science,
technology, math, Through these
different pursuits of innovating, God
used innovators to actually reveal
Jesus as King for the very first time.
And so that's a very meta way to say,
I have a big passion, um, for really
encouraging and stoking the fire in
people of like, if they're questioning,
am I called to be an innovator?
Like Pastor Adam says, I think
everybody has a potential.
Uh, but like we learned
this past Sunday, right?
Uh, will you apply?
That potential.
Adam: Right.
I think it's, it's a really
good way to, to view it.
Wasn't Daniel one of the Magi?
Yeah, so
Vance: Daniel was the master of
the Magi 500 years before this Magi
people, uh, actually revealed Jesus.
And the significance behind that is that
because Daniel was so bold about his
faith, God elevated him to the cabinet
of the king of that day in Babylon.
That's right.
And the Bible actually indicates that
he became the master of the Magi.
And so my culling commentary on this.
is that I would assume that if he's
talking to Magi, teaching Magi,
he's a master of the Magi, he's
probably telling them about the
prophecies of the Messiah to come.
And that's why, actually, 500 years
later, the wise men or the Magi people
even have an inclination that, oh,
we're studies of the stars and this
star just suspended over Bethlehem.
Right.
Uh...
Maybe we should go and check out
Adam: what's happening there, right?
Exactly because it was foretold but you
know, I think even in the in the narrative
right of okay innovation You know with
we're talking about the fact that am I am
I in the matrix or am I out of the matrix?
Because I'm innovating.
I don't think that necessarily Everyone's
going to have the privilege just to
quit their job and become an innovator.
Because we might have, you know, people
working in the building industry.
They may be working factory.
There may be a very much a
9 to 5 that because of the
stage of life, I gotta do it.
So maybe within your work frame,
uh, your, your framework of, of your
career, your job, there may not be
much room for innovation, but this is
the perfect time for a side hustle.
This is the perfect time to get
through to get to, and sometimes
that's a healthy mindset for people.
What do I have to get through so
I can get to, that, that, that
will push me through the day.
So, so I can do a good job
here to get to my after hours.
Project that I'm really excited to get
to but I know I've got to get through
something to get to that Yeah, that's
Arun: really really really powerful stuff
That's really good And actually just
want to like circle back to something
you guys were talking about Everybody
has a potential to be an innovator You
guys are part of the vest fund you guys
give the first check in to a lot of
founders who are innovators What are
some of the core traits you can see?
Across all the founders or
innovators that you know, you feel
like are the ones that take off
Vance: Yeah, I think it's been
refined actually over the past
year, uh, we've had a lot of wins,
we've learned a lot of lessons.
I would say that what I'm realizing,
especially in the environment that
we're in right now is the proof
is in the pudding a little bit.
I think I'm leaning a lot more than I
probably ever have into traction, proof
points, maybe not even in the current
idea, but what have you done before?
Right?
How, how can I have a proof point
that's a proxy that you'll be
successful again in the future?
It doesn't have to be even directly
correlated, but I'm starting
to triage a lot more things.
Okay.
What other things are you involved in?
What other things have you led?
What other things have you done?
Even if you've never started a company
within the companies that you've
been a part of or within the church
or within the ministry or within.
Uh, the, the nonprofit organization.
Have you been a part of that has done
something significant that, that looks
like innovation, that, that feels like
entrepreneurship, that feels like, Oh, you
are actually a prolific problem solver.
Oh, wow.
On a no budget on a dream, you
made something out of nothing.
And, and I'm, I'm trying to
detect that a lot better.
Um, I think if I was honest, I would
be more enamored, uh, before maybe
a little bit too much on the idea.
itself, which I think is still important.
I think idea and market
is still very important.
So not to diminish how important that
is, but, um, increasing the investigation
on the actual founders, not even
characteristics, but proof points
of being able to, to get something
Adam: done.
Yeah, I agree.
I don't think we really, as Vance said, we
really do care about, uh, the market size.
We do care about the, the idea,
the product, uh, notion, but
we've got a pretty good sense.
Like just by telling us quickly
about the idea, we could get a good
sense on the market size on things.
So what we're looking for is
some unique characteristics.
Uh, one of the things that we
always look for is chemistry.
Yeah.
Cause you know, as a, as an investor,
we're looking for, you know,
sometimes we're taking board seats.
So we're going to have a
lot of interactions in the
early days of the founder.
I think an early stage, uh, founder
and investment relationship.
Is much, uh, more integrated than
a late stage founder and investor
at a late stage, just throw money
and then, you know, bring us
back profit in the early stage.
We're actually helping
you shape your product.
We're actually very invested
in making connections and, uh,
helping you win and strategize.
And so a big part of
it is we want to know.
Uh, is there chemistry?
Are we looking forward to, you
know, conversation and we're
looking forward to, uh, interacting?
Because for us, it's also a consideration.
Man, we're going to be doing
this for the next few years.
Yeah.
So, that's going to be a
lot of time spent together.
Yeah.
Um, is this person just going
to be really difficult to work
with even if their idea is good?
Yeah.
And so, and I mean, like, because
this is, this is the chemistry
that we've been able to build.
We, we like hanging out.
We like talking.
It's refreshing.
So, it doesn't feel like work.
It's so good.
Yeah.
You know, and if something is going
to feel laborsome and tough work, man,
I'm going to tell you, maybe, maybe
put your investment somewhere else
because you, you don't have enough
bandwidth for things to drain from you.
If you want to get out of the matrix
and you want to be excited about going
to work, what are the pain points
you're going to have to deal with?
If it's a person.
Change that.
Because I don't have to
deal with painful people.
So I need, I need things in my world
that's going to be very attractional
to work with and work through.
Problem solvers, uh, people
that are going to pivot.
If someone's going to
be a wet blanket, right?
So, so I'm, say we invest in a founder.
And every time that founder comes with a
report, it's like, man, this is so hard.
And we're like trying to talk
them into not quitting because now
we've made this investment in them.
And we're freaking out because we're like,
man, you, you're not going to bail, right?
Oh, that's the worst.
Like that, that concept would be terrible.
Right.
We almost, and we say this, we've
said, said this for years, there's
two types of horses in a race.
One you have to whip to get
going and one you have to pull
the reins to pull them back.
We'd rather pull on the reins.
Yeah, we'd rather someone so motivated
motivated that we're like, whoa Let's just
let us slow this down rather than man.
Could you get moving?
Mm hmm.
And so they're the kind of
Attributes that we're looking
Arun: for.
Oh, that's so good because you can't
teach that you can't teach you can't
teach that you have to either Have
Vance: that or you don't
I'm convinced you can't
Adam: you can't yeah Yeah, I mean
and passion presents differently
sometimes they're passionate at
the beginning But do they have the
ongoing passion to keep it going?
So are they self?
Passionate or are they
passionate about something?
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I so, you know, they may be passionate
in this season But did that passion come
because someone gave them an opportunity
or did they self generate that passion?
Arun: Yeah, and actually um, I just wanted
to speak to all the the future innovators
out there, the ones that don't have the
proof point, maybe the ones that are kind
of figuring out how do I go from, you
know, this, these ideas that are in my
head to actually putting into practice.
So, um, for both of you guys, what was
that step for you when you went from,
maybe you were just an IC or a builder
into, okay, now I'm going to, you know,
become a visionary, or maybe that was just
always in you and you were always like
that, but what was that kind of session?
Yeah.
Vance: I mean, I have two like
incredible examples I've been privileged
to be a part of, obviously Vive is.
It's a very entrepreneurial
endeavor, right?
Uh, Kim and I being able to be
part of Pastor Adam and Kira's
vision back in 2011, 2012.
Um, and still today, remaining and
seeing this church grow and thrive.
That's a huge example that I use.
Uh, it's a great proxy.
It's not a for profit company.
It's a non profit entity organization.
It's a church.
It's a charitable organization.
But, it has the dynamics
and the ingredients of what
a startup is like, right?
Um, if anything, in a lot of ways, uh,
it's harder, uh, because you don't have
equity to give to staff to motivate them.
You have to actually be
a good leader, you know?
And so you can always play
it in your favor, right?
Um, I also think that, uh, vocationally
in the past being in tech, right?
My experience in Google is actually not
that helpful when it comes to startups.
Cause you're more of like, uh,
A small cog in a big machine.
Although I leverage it, I do
think getting into companies
like that is still a signal.
What's actually more impressive when
I'm raising money is when I talk
about my experience at this company
called Adara, which was I joined in at
employee number 20 and um, I was the
first product hire so I essentially led
product for the time that I was there.
And when I joined there were two
million in revenue, um, and when I kind
of left full time, uh, they got to a
hundred million in gross revenue, right?
And so that wasn't all me, but, uh, being
able to piggyback off of that experience,
um, really provided a lot of people, uh,
to increase their credibility, um, in,
in my ability to, to be able to build.
And so I think that.
If you are, you don't have any proof
in, in building something from,
from zero to one yet, just honor
this current season that you're in.
Like I wasn't thinking when we're
bumping in for Vive and you know,
when Pastor Adam would send us to
another location and things like that.
I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm
gonna use this for my resume
to start a company one day.
I'm just like Trying to be faithful
and do the best that I can do
in the season that I'm at and
steward what I have well, right?
And I feel like some people
lose the art of that.
They're so fixated on what's next.
They're not honoring what's now.
And I do think there's a principle
in there where A lot of our
responsibility is actually just
honoring what's in front of us.
Yeah.
Well, having a vision, but,
but first honoring what's right
Adam: in front of you.
Definitely.
Yeah, I think you can't
plan every step, right?
If you're looking at every move to
build a resume, you might miss the
surprise season that actually was
one of the most beneficial elements
to your, you know, your breakout
moment or what you learned, right?
Uh, you know, what we've learned
through building the church
at a diligence has been...
It's literally been the
best leadership lesson.
Oh yeah.
Because I always say that, you
know, really true leadership
happens in a volunteer environment.
Yes.
It's hard, you know, when people tell
me, you know, I'm in a leadership role
in my, my workplace, I kind of chuckle
because I'm like, Well, that's a pseudo
leadership, because, you know, if you stop
paying them, will they come and will they
do what you, you know, ask them to do?
And the answer is no.
So, so you're leveraged your leadership,
uh, more than, uh, you know, just
done a great model to follow.
So, yeah, I think, I think, you
know, just putting your hand to
work in a diversity of areas.
I think volunteering is a huge aspect of
growing for the, for the future founder.
Vance: Yeah,
Arun: no, let's, let's talk about that.
Like you said, the best you can do right
now if you're not in that leadership
position is to be the best follower.
Some of the best followers
can be the best leaders.
And you guys have talked about this
as you were building the church early.
You didn't go out and recruit like
a bunch of other outside people.
You kinda try to find
the talent on the inside.
So like, talk about that.
Talk about Finding the best followers
that can then become the best
Adam: leaders.
Yeah, I think that's a really good way
to put it is that you are, you are,
you're building from within, right?
And so you're trying to really
put, uh, tasks ahead of people.
You're trying to give responsibility and
see who can rise up under the weight.
So if they, so what we're looking for
is weight bearers, weight carriers,
who can carry the weight and, and
actually, uh, you know, take on more.
And then who can distribute that weight.
And there's a natural leadership because
there is a recruiting to a cause.
And so, and so in the early days,
uh, when we were forming, uh, the
church, when we met, uh, Vance and
Kim, there was obviously a, uh, that
we, you guys were very young, like
you guys were 22 out of college.
Um, but.
In many ways, there was an appetite
for excellence that when we, when
we use language, and so it was the
vision of what wasn't a reality,
but what we're looking to build.
And it was different words
that resonated with them.
When we talked about, Hey, we
want to build with excellence.
We want to We want to do something
so well that it actually resonates
with people and that, you know, we
want authenticity and all these words
that were shaping what Vive is today.
We spoke back then and that was
enough for them to go, let's do it.
Let's, let's do it.
And it wasn't even, it wasn't even
the, the ministry in practice.
In fact, they signed up before
I even preached one sermon.
We hadn't even, I hadn't even preached.
They hadn't heard me preach.
It's true.
What
Arun: was it Pastor Vance?
What was, uh, What made you do it?
Vance: Yeah, I mean, um, when, when,
when we, when we initially met,
obviously Pastor Adam just said a
little bit earlier, there was a lot
of initial chemistry, obviously, you
know, if you're listening to this
podcast, you probably know Pastor
Adam, uh, and Kira and you become fast
friends with them, uh, right away.
Very personable.
Um, and so that, that's a big dynamic,
by the way, if you're a leader.
Maybe try to be a likable leader.
That's a good idea.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, don't hide behind, I'm an introvert.
No, no, no.
Be an extrovert.
Like, it's attractional.
Um, at least for Wait,
Arun: can I pause you there for one
Rodgers talked about this when he
went from the Packers to the Jets.
And he said, it's better to be
respected first than to be liked first.
So I'm just curious.
Do you think it's better to be
liked first and then respected?
Or do you think you have to Well, respect
Adam: takes time.
Like is one meeting.
Interesting.
Okay.
Like, I, I, it's hard to be
respected after one meeting.
Right.
But I can be liked after one
Vance: meeting.
Arun: But do you think it's hard
to try and earn that respect
if you're so worried about
Adam: being liked first?
I don't think be worried
about being liked.
Be true to your nature.
I think you're talking about
be true to who you are.
Okay, cool.
Don't just put on likability
and then be a pretend person.
But I think what, respect grows over time.
Okay.
So, there is more respect after
ten years, hopefully, than
after one year, after one week.
Vance: Yeah, I think it's
a false polarity, right?
I don't, I don't think
they're actually at odds.
I think you want both.
Yeah.
Um, in saying that too, uh, because
respect will take a long time because
it's going to take reps and it's going
to take experience with one another.
You really can't get that initially.
And so especially if you're
going to start a company.
Startup church, startup company, a lot
of times you get seed round of funding
or you have limited runway with bootstrap
funds You got to get people to like you
pretty quickly You know, and so there's
an art of being a winsome person not being
fake Yeah, but being a winsome person
and putting your best self On and, and,
and I'd be like, well, this is just the
Adam: authentic me.
I, yeah.
I think, I think Aaron Rogers is like
coming from a position of being so
well known for what he's already done.
like, sure.
Hey, hey, win respect first.
Well, but you everyone knows your name.
Yeah.
Everyone knows what you've done.
Yeah.
But if you are a nobody and you're trying
to build respect with people, well, how
do you get that unless you're known?
Mm-Hmm.
. And so to be.
To endure the journey of being known,
you have to be likable, otherwise
you don't even get past the first
Vance: meeting.
Yeah.
Yeah, and so, chemistry was big, right?
The first three hours we were
just hanging out, we were
riding Google Bikes, you know.
That's right.
Uh, they're in long tees, skinny jeans,
Paseta doesn't wear skinny jeans anymore.
No,
Adam: I'm, I'm, I've
gone for the comfy jeans.
Vance: Like you, Arun.
And that was before skinny
jeans were in the U.
S.
yet.
That's This is weird, but I like it.
Um, and so, so we're hanging out and
then we end up at a Thai restaurant.
And I would say the second
component was vision, right?
And so I think this is underestimated
with founders and leaders.
They, they waffle around
what they're doing.
And sometimes they're too verbose.
Uh, they actually haven't practiced
the art of pitching their vision.
Right.
And it doesn't have to be.
Something crazy.
You don't have to go to like vision
pitching school, but how many times have
you talked about it with your spouse?
How many times have you
talked about it with?
Your former boss or a colleague
or a peer or a friend?
Have you refined it?
Right.
I could tell that that wasn't the
first time Pastor Adam had shared
the vision I don't know if I would
have broken it down like that
because I was 22 and pretty naive
But hindsight's 20 20 remembering it.
I got this sense that
wow What a vision, right?
Like the language that we use
today at Vibe, you know, what, what
if the Silicon Valley was Known
not just for technology, right?
The place that is influencing the world
with products like the iPhone, the
iPad Yeah, with companies like Facebook
and Google that are headquartered
here influencing billions of people
What if that place wasn't just
known for technology and innovation,
but was known for a move of God?
Yeah, what if we can create
a church that attracts?
Those people that work at those
companies and could they be awakened
to the reality of Jesus and could
Adam: still remembers the vision.
Yeah.
Vance: Yeah.
And could, when they were awakened to the
reality of Jesus, have a deeper purpose
to the products that they were building.
And could he actually shape those products
with deeper principles that are founded in
the Bible and actually change the world.
And we're just eating pet time.
We're like, wow, like
that sounds super cool.
And so I would say vision was.
was really compelling because they
had an articulation around it.
You could
Adam: actually say this
because, you know, you're right.
It wasn't the first time we'd shared
the vision and that's pretty impressive
that you still remember those elements.
But, um, you know, it was, it was the
first time we'd, we'd shared it that way.
Right.
Meaning when it comes to writing
a vision for your company.
That you're trying to pitch
make sure it's dynamic.
It can't be a static vision.
It can't be just a repeated Vision
statement that is void from what's
in the room Because we had shared
it to investors from australia.
We had shared it with family And now
we were sharing it with potential
people that were a part of it.
So it had to go from a, can you see it
to making it personal for them in it.
And so I think a vision that one of the
biggest keys to casting a vision is make
it dynamic to the room that you're in.
Vance: Yeah.
And so the third component, I
would say this grew in time, right?
Uh, was credibility
and flurry of activity.
What I mean by that.
is, uh, based on chemistry
and vision, we said, yes, when
they asked us to join the team.
Right?
And that yes, we didn't really
understand the magnitude of that
because we never started the church.
So it's kind of like a naive yes.
Neither had we.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Where does the credibility come in?
Yeah, with the mustard
seed level faith, right?
I think the Bible talks about that.
But, you know, um, in getting going, I
would say the third pillar that really
took a seed into sprouting into fruit
and momentum and things like that.
was the credibility that preceded them.
What I mean by that was they had, uh,
their family um, fly in, help them
kinda move in to the rental house
that, that they were going and meeting.
They're family and their
parents and like, Oh, okay.
Wow.
This is a great family.
And then, uh, they had, uh, you know,
people that were part of their youth
ministry fly in to visit and then sitting
across the dinner table and hearing
crazy stories about youth ministry
over the past 10 years and the revivals
that they've seen and the trips that
they've done and the people that they've
seen saved and, and things like that.
And then you had another, uh, kind
of kingdom builder type person
donate 80, 000 worth of sound
equipment and things like that.
That was, 10 years of a previous
season that was showing to Kim and
I, Oh, I'm so glad we said yes.
I didn't even realize, but actually
there's some legs to this thing.
Right?
There, there's people from their
past that's validating the future.
Mm hmm.
Right?
And so there's this thing about
like the art of back channeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
I don't think that people realize.
From a very tactical level, what I
did at Overflow is I would look at
mutual, here's a pro tip, I would
look at mutual connections, right?
Mutual connections with
people I'm pitching, VCs that
I'm pitching on LinkedIn.
And I would ask that mutual connection
that knew me, that could advocate for
me, Hey, can you text that person?
I just pitched them and advocate for me.
And they, Hey, I heard
you just met with Vance.
He's the best.
I'm actually in the pre seed round.
You got to get in, in all
that type of stuff, right?
And then what I would do actually,
here's another pro tip, man, this is.
This is inside the building right here.
I would put a retargeting
pixel on the overflow.
co website.
And so literally there was
an ad that would follow the
investors because they look at our
website to research the company.
And I cookied them and there would
be an ad on LinkedIn, Instagram,
Facebook that would follow
them everywhere that they went.
So psychologically like, oh man.
Overflows everywhere.
Overflows everywhere.
It's huge.
I need to get in.
And so, and so, uh, there's this,
there's these tactics that help, um,
frame, um, and it's not manipulation.
What I'm saying is it's momentum.
It is, can you create, um, a
flurry of activity and you can't
sometimes if you haven't honored the
previous season, by the way, right.
But if you have.
Yeah.
And you have some credit in the bank.
Yeah.
With some people.
And with your past.
You can use that to your leverage
for momentum into the future.
So, I'd say those are some of the
components if I remember it right.
That's how.
So good.
Yeah.
Arun: I want to talk about
just hearing you like pitch the
vision that he shared with you.
I think a lot of times.
Like, the founders, or people that I
hear about that are starting companies,
a lot of it is, it's their idea and
they're just trying to share that
with other people, but not to share
it to be in that idea with them.
And I think for you, it was, you
shared the vision, and now that
vision has also become Pastor Vance's.
So it's like, not just your
vision, it's his vision now.
And then the next person that
he pitches, it's their vision.
So it's like, how did you
kind of go about that?
It's not just you're sharing your
vision, but it's bringing them into
Adam: that vision with you.
Well, that's what I was saying about
the vision being dynamic, right?
So when I'm in Australia and I'm trying
to, uh, raise money from people to
send us, I'm, I'm giving them a picture
of what we are going to do for us.
So could you do this?
When I'm pitching it to Vance
and Kim, I'm saying, imagine if
we, so the language is inclusive.
That's huge.
I'm saying, imagine if we affected
the CEOs in the Silicon Valley.
Imagine if we, so everything is not
just support me and my ministry.
It was like, we could do this.
So I'm trying to get them to start
seeing themselves having that effect.
And then that...
Turn around and then gives them
permission to use that language.
Imagine if we, to somebody else.
So now we're bringing people into
the picture rather than what I was
doing in Australia was more about,
can you see me going and doing this?
And, uh, and so it's just knowing
the dynamics of what we're doing and
shaping your language so that people
can find their fit in that vision.
That's what you're trying to do.
You're trying to give them a vision
of what will be, not yet, but can
Vance: you see it?
Yeah, the vision, you have
to be a picture painter.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Is, is, and if you're really good,
um, you know, like Pastor Adam
is, invite the other person to
start kind of painting with you.
Color with it, yeah.
A little bit, right?
And so you put the framework,
you put the infrastructure of,
hey, imagine, imagine a world.
Right?
Imagine a Silicon Valley.
Imagine a Bay Area.
That.
Right?
And then when you can get somebody
to get out of their seat or sit up in
their seat and lean in and they want
to contribute to it, you got something.
So vision is being a picture painter.
And then I would say mission,
when you're really good, right?
Is, um, creating, uh, language.
That becomes a mind virus.
So for example, uh, so that
people would be awakened to
the reality of Jesus, right?
And we've added on to that over the years
and bringing heaven down to earth But
originally it was so that people would
be awakened to the reality of Jesus.
We said that so many times Yeah, every
team meeting every service Ten times we
would do videos creative videos and end it
With that mission statement, we would just
make excuses of ways that we can introduce
the mission statement so, so that anybody
in the organization could repeat it.
It becomes like a mind virus, right?
Like overflow to inspire
the world to give, right?
It's so simple, but it's so compelling.
So when you get really good
and you can really craft
articulation, it's really powerful.
Because when people can remember it
and say it verbatim exactly how you
framed it Yeah, then all of a sudden
it's top of mind for people and they're
looking for excuses to help you win.
Exactly No, that makes sense I
Arun: think for the Like for the hype
network the high pod I think a lot of the
mission that I see it having is how do we
find a lot of founders that can come in?
and build with kingdom principles, right?
Um, and there's this book out
there that was recommended to me.
It's called The End of Reality, How Four
Billionaires are Selling a Fantasy Future
of the Metaverse, Mars, and Crypto.
And so this is about like the four
billionaires that are kind of controlling
a lot of our um, you know, major tech.
And it's like Peter Thiel, Elon Musk,
Mark Zuckerberg, and Mark Andreessen.
And it's this whole idea of how
they're shaping the future for us.
Um, and, and it's this idea
that they think it's all
about the future generations.
We can kind of ignore some of
the problems now, and build a
world for the future generations.
Um, but what I think is really
interesting is how you said, there's
so much that's coming out of the
Silicon Valley, but what if we had
a network of people that are now...
With Kingdom Principles changing
how the world is shaped, right?
So if you were to just go speak to
these people that are, you know, kind
of out there thinking of new ideas, what
would you say to kind of inspire them?
Adam: Speak to the four billionaires?
Arun: Oh yeah, I mean, I don't
know if you can change their mind,
they're trying to change our mind.
But, to the builders out there.
Adam: Yeah, uh, to the future builders.
Um, I think, I think the, the I
think what you've got to realize is
these guys are living in a, in many
ways, uh, living in a false reality.
Okay.
The four billionaires are
living in a false reality.
They're, they're not grounded on earth.
Okay.
Which is okay because they're
in the process developing some
great utilities for us to use.
Starling.
And so we, we're really, we're, yeah,
we're really happy with them being out
there in that weird space, but are they?
Uh, uh, is there lofty ideas useful?
Yeah, because it's definitely
pushing the envelope forward.
I think if I was to talk to a lot of
founders right now, I'm looking for
them to in many ways, uh, instead of
just looking what will break the system
or what will do something, I think
you're thinking down the wrong line.
I think you've got to think,
what are you passionate about?
Good.
Because these four billionaires.
I don't know if they're thinking,
what would break the system?
I just think that's true to
their personality, that they love
space or they love the metaverse.
It's true to who they are and what they've
been passionate about has produced wealth.
It's produced following, support.
They've been so convicted that along
the way they've actually done both.
They've been able to produce people
to believe in it, to help fund it,
or they've been so successful at
what they've done because they've
had a deep conviction around it.
So I think conviction is, is critical.
I mean this is, innovation is so.
Attractive.
Yeah.
When you talk about innovation, and
we're drawing the in, but I got to tell
you, let me put a very big warning.
It is so hard.
It is very, very difficult.
And when you start a company, guess what?
It's the most thrilling and terrifying
thing all wrapped up in one.
Because now it's your
identity wrapped up in this.
There is, you're going to
question your capability.
It's going to push you to your limit.
If you're doing it right, it's
going to test your mettle.
It's actually, building a company
is actually more about building you.
So the process of building a company
or an org or a team, you're actually
refining and defining who you are,
and it's gonna, it's gonna have chaos
moments, it's gonna have joyful moments,
it's gonna have all of the emotions,
but you're maturing through the process.
That's why a, you know, uh, it's easier
to put funding behind a seasoned builder
because they've already been through all
those emotions and they made it through.
What we're, what you're trying to do is
you got to be prepared that man, this
is actually going to test everything.
So I better have at the core
a deep conviction that this
is what I want to build.
Has passion
Vance: always allowed you to push
through seasons that maybe have
attacked your energy or obstacles
that have seemed insurmountable?
Has, has passion, um, enabled
you to always push through?
I mean, let's just put it in the vibe
church context over the last 11, 12 years.
Would you say passion, that
ingredient, has been critical
and maybe one of the primary?
Adam: I'd say it's one of the primaries.
Um, I think conviction is the
core that God's called me.
So there has been many times
where, I don't know if I would say
I was ready to give up, but many
times I'm like, man, this is hard.
This is difficult.
And if I didn't have the core
conviction that I was called
to do this, I have to do this.
Um, even when it wasn't fun Because it
hasn't been fun every step of the way.
There's definitely been seasons
where it's been So passion does not
Vance: necessarily equal fun
Adam: passion doesn't necessarily no No,
absolutely not because I mean if you just
stop being passionate Well, then what
are you going to do go and do something
else that you're passionate about?
so I think being passionate about elements
and Fostering, making something fun that
you get passionate about in the process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Okay, so how do I shape this?
How do I build this where
I actually like being here?
You know, there's many
ways to build an org.
There's many ways to build a church, okay?
But am I building it in such
a way that I like being there?
And so I really, I, I, one of the
convictions early on, and we talked
about this, was, uh, we don't have
to grow a church everyone else likes.
We have to grow a church we like.
And one of the pressures when you're
building a church in the early
stages is, Man, what do people like?
Let's just build that so they come.
Because we need sustainability.
But at the day, if I don't like it, and I
don't want to come, and I don't like the
people here, well, what's the use of that?
If it's not fun, I'm not coming.
Because I knew, that was our
saying, If it's not fun, I'm
not coming, and I'm the pastor.
So, better make it fun.
Better make it fun.
But, you know, I knew people,
I knew pastors that didn't
even like their own church.
And I felt so deeply sorry for
them that it was like, man, I've
got to bear with these people.
And every time you'd meet them in a green
room, they'd be talking about how terrible
they're people, how annoying they are.
And I just.
I had zero respect for that guy.
Cause I'm like, man, you built that.
Vance: You built that.
You're saying you don't
Adam: like yourself.
But what it is, is they
negotiated on what they wanted.
Because they were building what
they thought people wanted.
Instead of building what they felt.
Hey, this is who we're going to be.
Even if nobody likes it.
Vance: So, not to, you
know, surface any trauma.
Okay.
But, Transport yourself to
maybe one of those moments
Where like, man, this is hard.
This is hard.
What do you do in those moments?
Like what's your mechanisms?
Adam: You know, I think it's
it's varying on the situation.
That's hard, right?
Is it public pressure?
Mmm, is it perception?
You know, is it media?
That is being, you know,
falsely propagated against you.
Yeah.
Uh, those, those kinds of things
that, you know, they're different
mechanisms for those seasons.
Some seasons you have to
strengthen yourself in the Lord.
Mm hmm.
You have to kind of go back and
if at least what gets you through
is to know that I'm building
with integrity, they're lying.
Right.
Okay.
If there was truth to the claims, then you
would show guilt and you'd be stressful
because you feel like you're covering up.
So if you're continual with
integrity and you can go to the
Lord and go, God, you deal with
them because they're lying about me.
And that's what the Psalms,
a lot of the Psalms are like,
they're making lies up about me.
You know, they're saying false things.
God, take care of them.
Uh, in other seasons, it's not that, it's
more just like, I think I, the question
of, Am I the guy to take it further?
That's the real challenging moment
when you feel like you've built it
to here and yet you've hit a wall,
maybe a growth wall, a growth barrier.
Seems that what you do isn't
working like it used to work.
And then you're wondering, like,
am I the guy to take it forward?
Cause you, especially with the, if
you're building something right, you've
got such a deep love for it that you
actually want it to win even beyond you.
And so sometimes you'll be confronted
with, I want this to win and work
so much that if there was someone
better to do this, I'd let them do it.
I want to stay
Arun: on this point because I think that
might be what's stopping people from
even getting into the innovation space.
They might not be, I have an idea,
but I might not be the guy to take it.
That place.
How do you kind of break that
Vance: barrier?
Adam: Yeah, I think what you've,
I think it's not a bad place to
be as long as you reconcile that.
Well, maybe that means I am the best
person to build it then, meaning that
I really feel like I've got to be
the person to actually start taking
it as so, so my, my reconcile or the
reconciliation in each of those seasons,
cause there's been many was, well, let
me keep taking it as far as I can and,
and I don't have to take it all the way.
But I take it as far as I can.
As soon as I make that resolve,
I find that I take it further.
And I find that I can take it further.
What it is, is I'm dealing
with my own vision.
I'm, I'm dealing with the disparity
between where I am and where I see us
going, and I don't know how to get there.
I have the vision for it.
But I just don't have the
know how to get there.
So, if it's too intimidating, the gap
between where I am and where I see is
going, can I just take it part of the way?
But each and every step, I'm
getting a little bit closer.
And so the gap is reducing.
And I actually realize, well, I've
brought this far, let's just keep going.
Yeah,
Vance: that's so interesting because,
you know, in distance running, right,
we've dabbled in that a little bit.
If you're training for something,
for example, or if you're trying to
get to certain distances, it's always
interesting when you're pushing yourself.
That there's actually a lot
more in you than you thought.
Yeah, like that time where you're like,
no, i'm i'm giving up like i've done
half iron man And it's like there's
been multiple times within that race.
I'm like i'm giving up i'm like
I'm done, but then you finished
the race and you're like, oh I did
it There was more in me, you know,
Adam: well, let's mean measure
markers, right when you're running a
marathon You're you're not Uh, thinking
how many miles to the end, you're
thinking, can I get to the next mile?
Yeah.
Can I get to that next marker?
So you have to then get to a point where
you're visually identifying a marker
and you go, I'm running to that corner.
Then when you get to that corner, you
extend it a little bit more and then
you just keep moving it just marginal.
So I can see, I might not see the
end, the finish line, but I'm seeing
the next marker and I got to get
Vance: to that point.
Yeah, I think there's
something in that, right?
Uh, because going back to the matrix,
these social constructs, I think something
when I, I don't know about you guys, but
when I grew up, I just felt like everybody
was saying it's all about retirement.
Yeah.
And for some reason I had a picture
of like just in the Bahamas without
a shirt on and just laying down there
for the next 30 years till I die.
You know what I mean?
And then, you know, you learn a little
bit more about life and you're like,
Oh, that actually doesn't sound awesome.
Like that sounds awesome for a week,
Adam: but.
Oh, I used to read, uh, I made Kira
read a book, Retire Young, Retire
Rich by, uh, is it Robert Kiyosaki?
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I mean, I made her read it
because I was so ignited.
Hey, babe, we're going to retire
at 30 and we're brand new married.
We were youth pastors at the time.
I had a business, electrical business.
And so, uh, you know, I was convinced,
man, if we play our cards, right?
Man, we're going to retire at 30.
Well, you know, God had a different plan.
And so.
So, but the principles were true
that we learned from that book.
And I would highly recommend that
book, not from the idea of retirement,
but from how to actually create and
generate wealth out of the box thinking.
Vance: Totally.
And, and, and so that it can do something
right generationally or for a deeper
purpose because I don't know if it's
an American concept, Western concept,
whatever, this kind of living 65 for
the rest of your life type of thing.
But it does seem like in different
cultures, for example, Japanese cultures,
the process was the destination.
You know what I mean?
Like I just, one of my favorite
documentaries of all time
is Jiro, Sushi of Dreams.
And it's just like this 70 year old or
whatever, I don't know exactly how old,
but really old gentleman that's been doing
like this, this master craft at sushi
making and just gets a little bit better.
Every day.
And you're like, wow, this
guy has found calling.
Adam: Like, it's incredible.
Another really cool documentary
I just saw, if we can just bring
this into the air real quick, uh,
is David Beckham's documentary.
Have you seen that?
I need to watch that.
Oh man, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Obviously, because I'm a big fan
of David Beckham, um, and just,
you know, football, uh, as a whole.
But, but what I was fascinated
about through the documentary is
actually how meticulous He is.
He's so meticulous and it comes up, it
repeats throughout the different, uh,
uh, I guess episodes where the whoever's
interviewing him Comments several
times about how clean the kitchen is.
It looks so clean.
It looks brand new Wow, and and and and it
evolves throughout the narrative That it's
actually David Beckham who's uber wealthy.
Mm hmm He does the house cleaning.
Wow.
Every evening he, he cuts
the wicks of the candles.
He, he scrubs the kitchen.
And at the end, the last episode, I
won't ruin it for you, but you know,
he's having this time and he's like man
cave at the back of his, of his house.
His family's there.
He's cooking for them, but even,
and he spends a couple of hours
preparing and then they they're done.
They go do their own stuff.
And then he spends the next few hours.
Literally polishing and cleaning
every little piece of equipment.
This is someone who could just
use it and then replace it.
But for him, it's just about
the meticulous nature of being
clean ordered and having quality.
And I'm like, man, that just
translated into his football,
into his career mindset, into his
buying, you know, a football team,
fashion, advertising, marketing.
This wasn't just because he was a.
And he married a pop star or
he's a good football player.
He was actually very driven throughout
his career to maximize the potential.
That's beautiful.
I
Vance: mean, the way that you do one thing
is ultimately the way you do most things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, wow, what a beautiful example.
That's awesome.
I
Arun: think that kind of comes out in
what you build to like who you are,
comes out into the things that you build.
No doubt.
Do you see that in like your company
or your company or the church as well?
Like who you are or even the founders
that you see fail, maybe it was, Who
they were on the inside came out into
Vance: the business of the turnbuckle.
Oh, I don't think you can build
a culture that you're not.
Exactly.
I think the culture is you, you would say
this, uh, first, you know, three, four
years of, of vibe pastor Adam, you would,
you know, kind of build the tension,
highlight all the problems, uh, that
we had within our team and our church
and, you know, the barriers that we're
trying to break and, but then you would
always pose a question like it's on us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, if you don't, if
we don't like what we see.
Yeah.
Then it's literally a reflection of us.
Yeah.
Adam: You can't disconnect
yourself from your organization
and go, wow, hey, that sucks.
Well then, okay, that's you.
Um, you know, and you look at the
excellence of overflow, right?
Uh, it is, it is what it is because
of who Vance is, you know, as a, as a
founder, uh, his mindset to be generous.
You can't build a generosity
platform if you're not generous.
All right.
It's going to be true to who you are.
So you couldn't just bring in a
replacement, uh, CEO who Stingy
and it's just going to actually
kill it because it's who he is.
Um, and I think what we're going to
look at is when you are building a
organization, it's a discipline to go.
Not do I want to just, what do I
want to see, but who do I want to be?
So I've got to live that so for that
to be the reality of what I'm building.
No, that makes sense.
Arun: Um, before we close up the
episode, I think the last topic I
kind of want to, um, tie this off with
is the responsibility of innovators.
I think, um, in the faith
space, we have like a different
responsibility than I think, you
know, outside of the faith space.
So kind of just wanted you guys
to talk about what you think the
responsibility of innovators are.
Um, and I'll, and I'll tie it to this is.
I think for, for example, with,
with Elon, he has a lot of stuff
with where he bought Twitter.
He bought the user base to create
a new service to do his bidding,
whatever you want that bidding to be.
We'll find out.
But he bought that.
And so how he's changing the
service is for whatever his future
service is going to look like.
He doesn't really maybe think about
the impact on all the different
areas that, you know, the people
that use the service are correct.
These, these people are just like
free marketing for him, first
future service, but for future
builders that are out there, they're
building with kingdom principles.
What are the responsibilities?
Um,
Vance: Yeah.
observation I've made, um, actually
pretty recently is that if kingdom minded
faith based innovators don't rise up,
most of society will continue to be
discipled by HR departments of big tech.
It's amazing.
And so, and so, I think we
have a massive responsibility.
Yes.
I just talk to regular, I think, well
meaning people that I would get along with
and, you know, we can have a drink and
we can have dinner and things like that.
But they are so ideologically stained
by what they can and cannot say because
of the HR department at their company.
That it's influenced just
the way that they live.
And I'm like, oh my goodness.
Like that is a lot of influence.
That's a lot of shaping of society
That i'm not going to call out specific
companies and maybe it's not just big
tech It's it's a lot of the fortune
500 companies a good majority of them.
Not all of them You know, hopefully
there's some good ones out there.
But uh, I do think we have a
mandate I think we have a mandate
to build successful profitable value
creating companies in the world
so that We can have HR departments
that don't have these ideological
Adam: bans.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
I also still subscribe to
the fact that it's not really
innovation unless it's disruptive.
Unless it's disruptive to some system or
structure or way of thinking or way of
doing, then it's not really innovating.
You are just enhancing.
And enhancement isn't innovation.
So if you're just taking, you know, the
idea of somebody else built something,
but I'm just taking all their thoughts and
making it a little bit better, Well, cool.
You're in the enhancement
category, but innovation is taking
something and reinventing it
so that it becomes disruptive.
What Elon did with Twitter, he took
something that was widely used, a huge
user base, but with a lot of problems.
If he bought Twitter just to clean it
up or just to make it a bit more public.
Well, then that wouldn't have been
innovation, but all the plans that
are coming out now and the payment
platforms and it is literally
going to be a public square.
It's his vision was to make
it a public square, not just
a rhetoric, you know, station.
And, uh, I think that's classic.
That's true to an innovator right there.
Arun: Yeah, and I think, but there's,
there's some risk, right, when you
become a true disruptor, right?
Yeah.
Um, I think of the movie
Oppenheimer that came out.
I
Adam: haven't seen it.
I want to I know.
I'm waiting for
Vance: it to come out on Apple TV.
Arun: You right now.
You need to go watch
Adam: Oppenheimer.
Where do you see it?
I don't know if
Arun: it's in theaters.
Adam: Prime.
Prime.
It's on Prime?
Yeah.
Let's go tonight.
Arun: But he had this, he had
this internal debate, right?
Like, like, he had to figure out.
Um, what was that line he said, I
said, he said, I've become death,
the destroyer of worlds, right?
Like he had all this in his
mind to do this, to innovate.
And then what, what did it lead to?
And so that's kind of what I want
to tie into, like, it's like Icarus,
you're flying so close to the sun.
Innovators kind of do that, right?
You fly as close as you can to the sun
without getting burned and you might
get burned, but that's kind of part of
being a disruptor and being an innovator.
But do you think there's like a
difference between being a faith
based innovator where you might not
be able to fly so close to the sun?
That you might incur all this risk,
or do you think it's okay and you can
kind of, you have those principles
Adam: to fall back on?
I think it's probably a little bit more.
I think it's more risk.
Because I'm not just
burning people walking away.
I've got kingdom principles,
to care about people.
I have to, as a kingdom founder,
I am ultimately representing God.
Okay, so my values and my
virtues have to be heightened.
I have to have integrity at
a, wound up to the top degree.
Okay, so I think that there is a, in my
opinion, there's actually a greater, uh,
level of risk as a kingdom innovator.
Vance: Absolutely.
I would agree for sure.
This is, this
Arun: is great, um, if you haven't been
to one of our hype sessions last time
we did it, we had a, a pitch session.
Um, and one of the, uh, products
that was pitched was pulpit.
ai.
Yes.
Um, and they brought AI
and the church together.
Stink, I think what he was bringing
up where, um, people didn't want
sermons to be generated via AI.
Yeah.
That's right.
But do you think there's a space with
church builders building proper data sets?
Where we could do that, and we
could generate sermons that are
Vance: tailored to specific uses.
It'd probably be more
theologically correct than some.
It's tied to the Bible.
Adam: I don't know.
Yeah, I think any preacher that
has a library of content, I think
it's drawing back from that.
I often look back at the
thousands of sermons, because
I've got like a sermon folder.
I can look back at all those sermons and
I'm like, man, like, so many of our church
today haven't heard any of those sermons
that I preached from like 8 years ago.
They were foundational, like teaching
that shaped us, but obviously I've
got a plan on where I'm taking
us, but I always, I look through
the early adopters on where we're
growing, people have come in the mix.
So is AI really good for being able to
take my library of content and then out
of that create, uh, more content from
a, Acclamation or accumulation of all
those things and produce, um, some, you
know, diversity of delivery of product.
Absolutely.
Now, if you're just starting out.
No, you need to build a library.
Yeah, you need to do the work first.
Oh, yeah, get a decade of teaching,
get two decades of teaching, create
a library for it to draw from.
Otherwise, it's not
actually drawing from you.
It's just drawing from anything
else just to create enough content.
Arun: No, that's fantastic.
Sorry, we can keep going.
I have so many more questions.
This is so great.
This is a great
Vance: podcast.
This was a
Adam: great podcast.
Let's record another one.
Yeah, let's do it again.
Arun: Thanks for listening, guys.
And catch you next time.
