Hype Pod - The Hype Network Podcast

Vance: Let's go to the

Arun: high pod episode 48.

We've got the usual.

We're almost on the 15th.

We've got Vance here.

We've got myself, Arun.

We've got new guest, Pastor Luke.

First time?

First time.

First timer.

Made it in the

Ps Luke: first hundred episodes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's go.

That's gonna be a special

Arun: distinction.

We'll get you an NFT.

We'll do something.

Um, so Pastor Luke, if you don't
know, um, Pastor Michelle has been

on the podcast multiple times before.

Yes.

Um, the husband of Pastor Michelle.

You are the CEO of Adaptic Health, um,
the campus pastor for VIVE San Jose.

Correct.

And you're on the board,
correct, for VIVE still?

Ps Luke: We just did the
transition last week.

Oh, okay, cool.

Yeah, So Paul Lambeth, who
was on last week, he's Oh,

wow, okay, I didn't know that.

Arun: Cool, good to know, good to know.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, yeah, so I think today's going
to be a very health driven episode.

We don't really talk about
like healthcare and we should

because I feel like it's broken.

Vance: Yeah, I've had encounters
with the healthcare system

in the past three months that

Arun: have been discouraging.

Yeah.

So I think this is a good educational.

I feel like you can
tell us a lot about it.

Um, I think we want to start with
adaptive and kind of just get the

lowdown of what your journey was to.

First, where your background
is and then how you ended up

deciding to start Adaptive Health.

Ps Luke: Yeah, no, great.

Well, my background started off in tech.

So I came out to the Silicon Valley after
doing math and computer science at Duke.

Uh, came for business school
at Stanford and, uh, really

just got started doing more.

internal entrepreneurship at Cisco.

We made video searchable.

So this is before there was a I as a term
we were building out speech engines to

make video searchable down to speakers and
all that and got recruited to a company

after we sort of made that available
across industry to build out a data

platform for many different verticals.

But ultimately we saw a lot of,
um, life science customers and,

uh, healthcare companies that were
having challenges with their data.

So we pivoted our company
to like focus just on that.

So launched that platform in 2017 as a

Vance: product manager, right?

Product manager.

Yes.

That's how we connected originally.

It's true.

Yes.

I started going to vibe and I was
in product management for a drip.

Travel data company.

Luke was a product manager at his
company and we just bonded week one.

Yeah.

I was like a product guy.

The JCC lobby.

Exactly.

Could you tell you guys were both

Arun: product guys before
you mentioned it or?

Is there something about product
guys that you can just tell?

Vance: Yeah, they're
just the coolest guys.

You know what I mean?

It's pretty easy to tell.

They're swag.

It's like product
managers like do nothing.

Engineers hate all product managers.

So you don't even know how to code, bro.

It's like, no, but we have
inner Communication skills.

Okay.

We know how to work cross functionally.

It's because engineers
don't know buzzwords.

That's why product managers have jobs.

Ps Luke: Um, so yeah, that was
how we, uh, got in at five, even

just like that connection point.

But, uh, in terms of the product
that we were building out.

It ultimately, um, got used to help
with some of the COVID vaccine,

the data management piece of it.

Wow.

So it took a month, actually took
less than a day to be able to do that.

Uh, so that company exited three
years ago to the Carlisle Group.

Um.

Did you keep

Vance: any of your shares or did
you exercise any of your shares?

Ps Luke: Um, I did.

Okay.

But, yeah, that's really what helped
even with being able to go and.

Get started.

Let's go.

Not life changing money.

Not life changing, exactly.

You weren't like the
founders of the company.

We're like the first
employees of that group.

Right, right.

Isn't

Vance: that like the kind of a little
dirty secret about Silicon Valley?

Is that, uh, there are, is definitely
outsized outcomes for the founders.

Oh yeah.

No, for sure.

I mean, they obviously
take the most risks.

they have the most responsibility.

Um, they're obviously kind of on
the forefront and so they carry the

brunt of it, but they also get the
brunt of the reward if it works out.

Most don't, but if it works
out, um, and so you kind of

have to be like really, really.

early at a company that ends up
being like 10 billion plus for it

to be more like life changing money.

If you're not an executive.

Right.

Does

Ps Luke: that make sense?

Yeah, no, that's for sure.

That was one advice I got
coming out of business school.

One of our professors, he was founder
at benchmark capital and he's like,

it's better to start off your career
at a, like a growth stage company.

That's Pretty much probably has a high
chance of IPO, going, um, getting acquired

because you're going to get so many more
opportunities and then that brand is

going to carry you through your career.

So yeah, unsolicited advice.

Vance: No, but like, that's a
good little pro tip because people

listen to this cause they're kind of
peeking in to understand technology,

understand startups as well.

And it was cool that maybe it wasn't life
changing, but it was enough seed money.

Um, and also enough experience and
courage to get started to be a founder.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

Because that was one thing when I came
out here, like I had already done a

startup on the side during school and I
knew I wanted to do more entrepreneurial

stuff, but being at Cisco, able to
learn enterprise software, the sales

cycle around that, as well as just
to be able to just get more reps.

So by the time that I'm actually
starting Adaptic, it was

like, all right, there's some.

So savings, there's money there
that we can have as a cushion.

But also there's just the experience.

There's a network.

All those things are so
much more invaluable.

Um, and I think that's really
what's helped us in this process.

So we officially started three years ago
as a company and really was looking at

some of the things that we see even today.

with like the research landscape
where a lot of money is wasted.

80 percent they say 2 billion, 200
billion is wasted in research each year.

Arun: What is it wasted on?

Ps Luke: It's wasted on one,
you're studying questions that

actually people don't care about.

It's not going to actually change any
type of decision making for a patient.

And then also you're not getting
enough patience in to be able to

actually get something that's going
to be statistically significant.

For any type of results.

So as a result, you're just doing
the work and it's not actually making

a change in the broader landscape.

So there

Vance: needs to be like a doge
for the health care system.

Yes.

Ps Luke: Yeah, there is that's
what's occurring right now.

Oh, really?

I didn't hear it.

What was

Arun: it?

I think doge is like, Oh,
they're going into that.

They're going into, we're going
to, we'll touch on that for sure.

I don't want to, I know
you want to chat on that.

So I'm curious, how did they get,
cause I want you to continue on

your background, but how did they
get funding for stuff like this?

If it's not.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: Well, I think there is like
that, uh, not so secret secret for

how a lot of the, uh, funding with,
especially in universities occurs where

it's much more about, can you get enough
consensus for what you're working on?

And as a result, people like, oh
yeah, let's give money toward that.

And then it was a sort of keeps that cycle
going versus doing something that is, it's

Vance: more based on the compelling
nature of that researcher and their

charisma to be able to like rally
consensus within like an elite

group of people at a university.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

At a university, at the NIH, at,
um, different private foundations.

But if you're out of style with
whatever is or that main narrative.

Then it's a lot harder to get the
funding, even though that's usually what

you see in retrospect, that a lot of
breakthroughs came from being contrarian.

What's an example?

Um, one example, um, I guess there's
the negative examples, but yeah,

so one is, um, for Alzheimer's.

Okay.

It's something that has been getting worse
and worse in terms of number of people

that are, um, dealing with this dementia.

But it was back probably like three
decades ago where the, I think

it's not actually, it's 2006, more
specifically, the research came out.

that the cause of Alzheimer's were
these amyloid plaques in your brain.

So it's actually like
protein that gets built up.

And as a result of this
groundbreaking research, it's

about 700, 000 of NIH funding that
sort of went to this research.

It started this whole wave of research on
how Alzheimer's could actually be cured.

In 2021, uh, so 200 million dollars were
spent on research because of this funding.

What was found out in 2024 was that it
was fraudulent, the actual research.

Vance: Oh, the 2006

Ps Luke: report was fraudulent.

Oh, no.

So, there's all this time, all this
money that was spent on something that

was so groundbreaking at the time.

But, I guess you could say there was
both pressure to publish, to get tenure,

to be able to say that this money was
sort of spent for something useful.

Right.

And It was never reproduced, that result.

So time after time, with all these
Alzheimer's drugs that were on

market, or trying to get to market,
they kept failing time after time.

And they could actually show that it's
reducing this plaque, but it's not

actually changing anything in terms of
the, uh, the cognition of the individual.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: So you're measuring the
completely wrong thing that's

not actually having an effect.

So that's like an example
of like wasted research.

Mm hmm.

And how it's having, uh, That's like

Vance: the symptom of guys just
not being able to be vulnerable.

You know that we'd rather waste 200,
000, 000 than say, I could be wrong.

If people actually go to marriage
counseling, we probably wouldn't

waste 200, 000, 000 because we
would have said, I could be wrong.

We should verify this test.

Ps Luke: That's for sure.

That's for sure.

So any positive examples.

Yeah.

So positive examples.

I think even with, I know vaccines are
sometimes in and out in terms of things

being good, but, um, I think the both
like the polio, uh, vaccines, things

that were early on with being able to
show that this is actually being helpful.

Um, a lot of that was just trial
and error of us coming up with

it, getting funding to be able
to like do those initial pieces.

Um, yeah.

Um, even with, I don't know, for the
COVID, the initial COVID vaccine, uh,

that did have some efficacy that was
showing, but once things start to mutate,

then it's going to change up and then,
um, so I think the efficacy and the

safety that was not being attended to
thereafter, but the breakthrough of

getting funding toward things that need to
be able to be studied that actually have.

Evidence that's showing
there's showing breakthrough.

I think that's really what
we see great with science and

Vance: yeah So you're saying that you
said 200 billion is wasted annually,

okay annually and it's mainly because
of What Like, just not enough, uh, due

diligence in terms of efficacy or due
diligence in terms of challenging, you

know, initial research, early research.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: It's a good,
those things are included.

So it's both, what is the
research question that's there?

Like are we studying
something people care about?

One example is, um.

There's like muscular dystrophy
and if you talk with some of the

families, uh, they don't really care
about what the scientist is saying

with this particular measurement.

It's like all of like, um,
jargon that they're speaking.

What they care about is, is my
loved one able to sit up properly?

Are they able to feed themselves?

Those are the things that they
actually want to get measured,

but people are not studying that.

So they can do literally millions of
dollars of research on that one thing.

But it's not actually going to go
back and result in any type of change.

See, this

Vance: comes back to product management.

Okay.

At the end of the day, there seems
to be a product management problem

because one thing that product managers
are meant to do is to define the

user and define their use cases very
definitively so that you can actually

solve problems for that end user.

It sounds like, uh, maybe the researchers
are disconnected from the end users.

Ps Luke: Very much so.

So there's a whole movement around
patient centricity for research and

Both for health care and for research,
but on the research side it is are you?

Doing something that patients
care about Can you measure it in

a way that they could actually
say this is helpful for them?

And that's completely lost.

So having like that North star metric
for your company, for your product, like

all of that matters as a product manager.

But in terms of that type of thinking,
being there for research, for

healthcare, it's very much like nascent.

Yeah.

Arun: Three years ago, I guess
three years ago you discovered this.

How did you discover this problem?

Like in research?

Ps Luke: Yeah.

So I guess being at the previous
company, Sama, Uh, just coming in from

a sort of tech product background,
having to learn about the problems

that our end customers were having.

So they're having challenges
with medical data.

They're having challenges
with, uh, clinical research and

getting patients into studies.

So those were the things that.

I kept just going to conferences,
talking with folks and, uh,

even my co founder for Adaptic.

We met each other while he
was interviewing for our chief

medical officer role at Sama.

Uh, he ended up going somewhere
else, but I'm like, we hit it off.

And he has like 40 plus years
of experience in the medical

field and, uh, thought leader
working with the FDA and others.

So it's.

Being tied in with those who
are experiencing these problems,

realizing that something's broken.

Let me just be the naive person,
just keep asking questions around it.

And then coming back to the first
principles, like how do we actually

Vance: Yeah.

But it's interesting because you started,
I think, with trying to take that insight

in the wasted money within research and
try to solve problems within research.

But you've pivoted like four times
and now you are actually closer to the

patient than you've ever been before.

Maybe talk about those pivotal
moments where you had to transition

your company to where it is now.

Ps Luke: Yeah, no, that's great.

So as we started off, we were thinking
more about this as a SAS platform

targeting a chief medical officer at a
pharma company where they're the ones that

making these decisions about the trial.

Oh, enterprise SAS enterprise SAS for it.

Vance: But um, these are like six figure
seven figure decisions that CMOs are

chief medical officers are making.

Correct.

Ps Luke: And it's yeah, go no go decisions
on whether they're going to move forward

if they're going to get like FDA approval.

What we found is that, um, they
don't have a line item budget

for another SAS platform.

Oh, wow.

They also, from a decision making
standpoint, this in general, usually it's

hard to, uh, buy the, something that's
going to help you make better decisions

because you can't really AB test it.

Right.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: So like you make a decision.

Did it work better than
if I did another decision?

You don't really know.

So what we, even though we were able
to help some folks in that process,

what we found is in the macro climate
of things being high inflation, um,

Very much a, uh, not extra money
flowing around in industry, especially

for biotech and biopharma that, uh,
this is not going to be a winning

proposition that we're not like pulling
the product need from our hands.

What we say at

Vance: overflow is when we approach
certain people, they don't got the juice.

They don't got the budget.

Right.

Um, and basically.

What were they needing to
endure with or just they on like

Oracle or something like that.

And they're already paying a lot for
that, but they, it's like, kind of like

nobody gets fired for choosing IBM.

Nobody gets fired for choosing Oracle.

So going with a new upstart
is probably super risky.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

No, it's both.

Like they see the risk that's there.

Uh, they also see the status quo
of, I have a, uh, Google doc.

Yep.

I have a spreadsheet and.

I'm going to make a decision
one way or the other.

Oh, okay.

So

Vance: based on the thing that you
were actually offering them, they

were already just doing on Google docs
anyways, and what you're saying is

they didn't have any marginal budget to
invest into that area, which is going

to have to endure with Google docs.

Arun: Can we take a step back real quick?

Can you describe the technical solution
that you guys are building first?

For this initial product, and then we'll
maybe make more sense, kind of like

the pivots you had to make from there.

What is the technical solution
you guys, yeah, came up with?

Ps Luke: So if you think about,
um, your TurboTax, where there's

a workflow that walks you through
the process of your tax return.

Make sure is that Shout out TurboTax.

TurboTax, exactly.

Into it.

Um, that you're getting the optimum,
uh, set of deductions in that process.

Um, that's essentially what
we're doing with our platform.

A TurboTax for trial design.

We're, we're simulating out the different
ways that you could be, uh, deciding on

which population are you going to study?

Uh, how many people are you going to have?

Um, what ways are you going to
measure that particular research?

And if something is working,
Then how quickly could you

decide that it's working?

If it's failing, how quickly could
you decide that it's failing?

So by having that workflow with our
product, you could both accelerate

the time to make decisions, but
also de risk all of those decisions.

And yeah, it works great on paper, but in
terms of, uh, both the, the status quo and

the ego, we found also with a lot of the
folks that we see that would be using it,

um, They don't want to be second guessed

and they feel like,

Ps Luke: yeah, this couldn't do
could not do better than what I do.

I've been doing this for
the last 20, 30 years.

So, uh, yeah, it was not a, um,
a winning value proposition.

Yeah,

Vance: that's interesting, right?

Because you, you can even have a
superior solution, but if you don't

understand the psychology of the buyer,
you could be frustrated all you want.

Oh my gosh, they don't
appreciate my innovation.

But that doesn't actually make you money.

Correct.

Exactly.

I'm

Arun: curious, is it because they thought
that your model would tell them an answer

they didn't want to hear, or was it really
that they thought they could do better?

Good question.

Ps Luke: I think a little bit of both.

Okay, yeah.

So there is an aspect of, if we don't
do this additional work, we can at

least continue in my voice is the
expert amongst everyone in the room.

Like who's going to question you, right?

Exactly.

Like you're the clinical lead for this.

You make the decision for it.

Um, but I think the other part is, um,
even if it is, quote unquote, the best

decision, is it worth the additional
cost or the perceived effort that it's

going to take for the team to do this?

Since none of that comes for free,
and they feel like they're having

to go, like, full steam ahead
with any decision at that point.

Um, so it's just, yeah, it didn't, Wasn't
the burning thing that they had, what

they did come back with us at was, can
you help us get patients for the studies?

Since that was always
a pain point for them.

Like even if we had designed the
best thing that we can actually

get patients in then it's still.

Yeah.

It's like a shiny object
without, so you went from

Vance: sass to patient recruiting.

Yeah.

And that didn't

Ps Luke: work.

Uh, it didn't work at a scale I would
say where there's still an element of,

in order to get paid by a researcher, a
pharma company or anyone else, um, they

want to see that you have been able to
get that patient in, that they qualify

for the study and that they ultimately.

Uh, we'll stay in the study and there's
a lot of things that are not, uh, I guess

patient centric in that process, meaning
that it might be the best study for you

since that's your only study, but the
patient might actually have their standard

treatment they could be taking and then
another like 10 studies they could be a

part of, which is the best one for them.

It might actually be study number
three, your study number seven.

And if we only get paid for study number
seven, it's not ethical for us to say.

Yeah.

Actually do that one versus
what is best for them.

Yeah.

So that's where we, um, yeah, it sort
of went on that journey of let's make

it available like all the information
that we can for these patients.

And for a while we're offering this as
a service for these researchers, but

what we got more as a feedback from
the patients and the families is that.

And this is a service that's helping them
to be able to be more empowered, more

confident as they go through the journey.

They're thinking about all
the options that they have.

They're thinking about the travel,
thinking about the support with

their loved ones and everything
else that needs to be there.

And if we can come more so around
them as a caring hand, that would

be much more valuable for them.

Our patients being our actual customers
and not needing to worry about

monetizing it sort of separately.

We can actually be a change
agent for the broader healthcare.

Vance: So you are a
direct to consumer now?

Ps Luke: Yeah, direct to consumer.

We have, I guess, a B2B element with
being able to have this as an employee

benefit on top of your health insurance.

But at the core, our
brand is consumer facing.

Arun: So do you still surface clinical
trials to, so you still have that

database that you're kind of Um,
curating for clinical trials and then

you'll surface that to the end customer.

Correct.

Okay, cool.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

So actually this recently someone, uh,
came to us, a friend of a friend for

co founder and um, this woman has been
going on a cancer journey and, um, she

was at a crossroads where her doctor was
saying, I'm going to need to start you

on this treatment in a couple of weeks.

Um, But we don't have
any other option for you.

If you want to consider
something else, go ahead.

So she went to MD Anderson to consult.

It's like one of the premier
cancer institutions out of Texas.

Um, And UCSF locally, UCSF said
they have no other options for her.

Uh, MD Anderson said there's
possibly two coming up, but we

don't know if you're eligible.

We just recommend you stick
with what you have, uh, there.

Um, but because she got referred to us.

We're able to take her medical
records, do the analysis of what,

uh, are her options around that.

And within the same day, like,
give her that information, uh,

with our AI driven process.

Um, our clinical, um, We'll need our
two medical officers, the one overseeing

it, so there's like a medical supervisor
for it all, but, um, MD Anderson, it

took them another week to come back
with some, uh, feedback, pretty much

in line with what we were already
sharing in terms of her options.

And then, uh, we have another, uh,
service that we've worked with that

does a PhD researcher doing a manual
sort of research of the process.

And uh, they came back with
supporting that same, um, focus,

but saying, here are a couple other
things that we would also sort of

recommend a case study around that.

So we're like, at this point,
we can be serving so many more

people at a much lower cost point.

Um, because of what we're able to do.

Vance: So you were one week faster
and also because you have kind

of a concierge sidekick, you
also were able to expand options.

So you're one week faster, a couple
more options, and then you said cheaper.

Yeah.

Because MD Anderson, you know,
their economics and, you know,

kind of how much they cost.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

Even like the manual researcher, like
to be able to have a researcher or the

staff at that level is very expensive.

And they're doing so many patients
about about 2000 patients per year.

And they're like, we're at capacity.

So

Ps Luke: they were actually doing a
favor for us to be able to expedite

our client through that process.

Um, and another client, another one
was saying how, um, their child's been

going through a cancer journey and
what was, what they heard from the

doctor was they had no other options.

But as they were going to, through
our second opinion process.

They got, uh, two more services that
were doing these diagnostic testing to

be able to determine Which particular
treatment would be more effective

than another that could unlock
more personalized care treatments?

And the actual doctors are saying to this
family Like out of all the families that

we're treating, no one's coming back with
like things that we never heard of before.

So we're able to uncover things that
the doctors don't even know because

they can't stay abreast of this.

One interesting fact is the amount of
medical knowledge is doubling every month.

So it's impossible for any doctor
or any researcher to stay on top

of this even if they want to.

But are you guys

Vance: tapping into different

Ps Luke: data than they are?

Um, I guess, yes, there's two elements.

There's, is like the public data like
your PubMed, your clinicaltrials.

gov that everyone has availability,
uh, access to be able to, uh, get.

Um, the ability to search that more
thoroughly with sort of the latest,

latest AI tech is becoming normalized.

But at the same time, not everyone is able
to do this for their particular patient

and understand that particular individual.

Um, but then there's other things
that we have access to in terms

of A broader network of companies
that no one has on the radar yet.

They're doing different diagnostic
tests, different personalized, uh,

treatments that we are aware of because
we're just plugged into that network.

So we can scour what's the best
options out of those and then

recommend those for, is that

Vance: just because like certain
organizations like Kaiser are

just not innovative maybe.

And so maybe they are, but maybe
they're just not innovative

in the way that you are aware.

And also, also they're
probably big, right?

So if they're going to shift towards
expanding AI to bolster their, um,

data set, it's probably going to take.

18 months because they got
to go through compliance.

Ps Luke: That's exactly right.

So what we find is that
enterprise adoption of any type

of tech, it always takes longer.

It always takes longer in
healthcare and research.

The consumers, they're always
ready to adopt it much sooner.

So by us being patient centric with it
and saying that we're using this on your

behalf, then that's actually allowing
us to utilize this in a much more.

Accelerated way in the market.

Did you guys always start out
with as an AI based solution

or did that happen later?

Um, it's happened later insofar as
my background is like AI learning,

but my bias has always been, unless
we're solving a problem that's

worth solving, it doesn't matter.

You can always sort of add the tech part.

In when it's needed, uh, obviously
we're not naive to when you need

to talk about it and bring it up
so that it actually is relevant.

But interestingly enough, it's since
things are moving so quickly, it's

unlocked so many more things that we
didn't even think were possible before

when we were starting the company.

And even when I showed some of this to my
co founder, uh, because part of that, even

example I shared with being a week faster.

It was me that was like, I, let me
take the information that we have,

let's run it through our latest AI
engine for it and show it to him.

And he's like, really, this
is what we can come up with?

Yeah.

Like this is, this is amazing.

Um, because he also needs that level
of confidence and validation because

you need to be your own sort of
worst or best critic, so to speak.

And.

At that point, I think he got
even that much more excited.

Is it

Vance: Anthropic?

Is it OpenAI?

Is it, what is it?

Ps Luke: Yeah, so it's a mix of, uh,
we've used OpenAI, we've used Claude.

Uh, there's, it's probably more so
using some of these other resources

that are out there that are biospecific.

Oh, even my old company, um, Sama
put out a llama based LLM Oh, wow.

That's outperforming a lot of the LLMs out
there for, um, anything medically related.

Yeah.

So we have sort of our
combination together.

Yeah.

Do you have a

Arun: private model that you
guys use specifically for your

company, or are you guys using.

Ps Luke: So honestly, we've been able
to get by with things that are off the

shelf available and piecing that together
on this more so based upon the prompting

that we have to be able to use it.

I think we'll get to the point
where we'll need to have something

that is more customized for us.

But, uh, we realized
it's not worth the cost.

Vance: Well, you're providing
enough value for now.

Yes.

Yeah.

Arun: Yeah.

I was curious because, um, uh, one
of my friends, he just like recently

became a doctor and he was kind of
starting to use this thing called AI

scribe internally at a hospital which
essentially just hears and listens to

everything that you and the patient are
kind of having a conversation about.

And it'll.

Generate doctor's notes for you.

Um, and so a lot of like old existing
doctors don't really like the idea of,

you know, having all this information
out there, like published to you, like

some chachi BT based kind of model.

So I was curious, like what, like
the ethical, like HIPAA kind of

considerations around there using AI,
that's not like a private model and stuff.

So, yeah, I'm just curious.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: Yeah.

Funny enough.

Like we're actually prototyping this out
because HIPAA gives rights to the patient.

And to be able to get access
to all their records and, um,

use it for their own purpose.

What's the sort of misunderstanding is,
is that the health care provider, your

doctor, um, they can't use it against you.

They can only say that if you ask
for it, we have to give it to you.

Right.

And by them using the AI scribe, they
can use that for documentation purposes.

If you.

Uh, give that permission for
them to use it, but just as much

as you can use it for yourself.

Right.

So that's essentially what we're now
participating with, um, some of our

clients where they can have the same
thing capability to go in, record,

and then instead of it being the
medical jargon in your medical record.

You now have the summary of what things
you need to do so that you have like

recall from what your doctor is saying
yeah, so using the tech for your own

purpose and all that is you have the
legal rights to because it is your own

data and You're using it for your own
care The alternative for what people

are doing today is especially for those
that have by been on the cancer journey

they are Getting the records, putting
into a Google doc or a Dropbox, they're

sharing it out to whoever needs to see
it because they just need and want help.

They don't care about privacy.

And, uh, even for those of us that are
healthier, this, we need to figure out

like, why is I'm feeling this little pain?

You go to Dr.

Google, you just put something
in, you've tried to chat to BT.

Vance: I've been trying to
chat to BT diagnose myself

and it's, it's semi helpful.

Um, I'm interested to work with you.

Um, and like you said, obviously
people that are really sick.

Man, we, we need to get them help.

Uh, but even people that
might be healthy ish.

Um, but are going on a personal health
journey to want to, you know, optimize.

Right.

Um, is a huge and growing market, right?

Like personally for me, um, I've been,
uh, kind of dealing with this situation

when I have increased levels of cortisol.

Um, for example, so like when I
run about five minutes in, um, I

get this, you know, thing on my
body that's really uncomfortable.

Um, It's like this itchiness, right?

I've never had it before.

And so I know it's different.

It's, it's odd.

Right.

And so, but I also want to
like improve my run times.

Like I know our runes on our running
journey and things like that.

And so in general, between that and
also my desire to kind of improve

my performance athletically, I've
invested in a lot of different things.

I'm literally wearing a glucose monitor
right now, um, partnering with Levels.

It's an app.

Yeah, that, uh, you know, gives you data,
um, in real time on what spikes your

glucose and what's sustained, which means
that, My microbiome is different from

yours, and so I might not be breaking
down certain ingredients the same way

that maybe other people can break it down.

And so I do that.

I have a whoop band,
keep it up with my steps.

And, um, I have eight
sleep, you know what I mean?

You know, really kind of optimizing
my sleep and cause that's like

a huge deal with health and.

I don't know.

Those are all investments, right?

And I'm making calculated decisions.

I'm probably not going to keep all
of these things together, but I've

been testing out different things
and trialing out different things.

But the punchline is I'm not the only one.

Like there are, I think probably hundreds
of thousands, if not millions at this

point that are willing to invest.

Do you invest in your personal home?

Arun: Oh yeah.

I'm wearing an aura ring now.

Okay.

There you go.

All this data is good.

I think the other thing is
being able to talk to your data.

A lot of this is you see it, but like, I
have questions like, what does this mean?

And that's why having AI and
like chat GBT, whatever model

you use, it's just really helpful
to be able to ask these, like.

Clarifying questions because some of this
stuff, you know, my doesn't have it yet.

Um, I don't think or a
whoop has it Oh, really?

Yeah, whoop.

You can talk to you.

Oh, that's really cool.

I can check or I've been reading the
data So maybe I haven't um seen it, but

if it does have it, please feel free
to correct me But i'm gonna check when

I go home today, but I think that's
the best part about it, especially

with When I go, for example, with my
parents to the doctor, you'll hear

something or I'll hear it from them.

It's still just like base level
kind of, you know, these are the

things that they mentioned, but it's
like, what does that really mean?

Like, what is that?

So it's like cool that you're
doing this kind of thing.

Like the thing that I always thought
about is like, you know, when you

go to a mechanic, like if I send
my wife to a mechanic, they're

usually just going to say whatever.

And she's just like, yeah,
okay, let's just fix that.

But like you really don't know
what to say back in terms of like,

is it really something I need?

Is this really what it?

It's cost.

But like, if you have a model that
knows kind of all the inner workings

of your car, it can give you like, Oh,
maybe you should ask these follow up

questions or like, this is what you, well,

Vance: I'll take it one step further.

How many times does medicine
actually heal a person?

Ps Luke: That's a great question.

Interesting.

Vance: Right?

Like, like, I think, I don't know
the data exactly, but I was literally

talking to a doctor last week about this.

And he's like, You know, look at the
data, you know, how many times does

medicine actually heal a person?

It doesn't typically heal a person.

It just helps them manage pain.

And so what he was saying is that
your body is actually very intuitive.

Your body's very smart.

And so when it's having
symptoms, something is wrong.

You need an oil change,
you're running out of gas.

So a lot of times the way that the
current medical system at large works is

that they can diagnose what's happening
and then they give you duct tape.

Oh, yeah.

You see your dashboard.

That's what's happening.

Oil change.

Just put duct tape over it.

You know what I mean?

And they don't actually get to
the root of what's happening.

A lot of it I've realized in my own
personal research in talking to this

doctor last week actually is just input.

Like a lot of it, you can reverse
the damages in your liver.

You can reverse the damages in your
organs by just eating differently

and understanding how your body
and your microbiome responds

to different types of food.

You know what

Vance: I mean?

And so I've, I've literally
met people personally.

It's been weird in this health
journey in the last two months

that have literally told me.

firsthand experiences of fundamentally
getting live blood tests, fundamentally,

um, understanding the core root of the
issue, what's missing or what's too heavy

in the diet, changing that within 90 days.

It's like a miracle.

Ps Luke: Even for me
personally, and that's

Vance: not medicine.

That's just food.

Ps Luke: And that's why one reason why
we say it's not necessarily that we're

in like empowering people for healthcare,
but we're empowering families for health.

Because health is not just your health
insurance or going to the doctor.

There you go.

But it is all the things
that you're eating.

It's all the things that you're
participating in, the ways that you're.

Even spiritual health like
all these things go together.

They're connected and I think yeah There's
more research that's coming in line with

what we even know from the Bible It's
like yeah, all these things are connected

around it But at the core if you're not
empowered if you're not actually realizing

that you have agency to be able to

I guess go on a journey and ultimately
God is our healer, but we can have our

own decisions to be able to be supportive
of that and let the body actually do what

it's supposed to be doing, then you're
never going to, uh, have the gap between

knowledge and reality be actually filled.

So that's essentially part of it.

What

Vance: do you guys think healthcare
looks like in the future?

Because at the day, I don't
mean to pick on Kaiser, right?

And if you work for
Kaiser, praise God for you.

Cause we've delivered babies in
Kaiser and all that type of stuff.

But if we could just speak pragmatically
for a second, um, and it doesn't have

to be Kaiser, but just our general like
healthcare system, what is it actually

still disproportionately good at?

Because I don't feel like it's.

Good at everything.

Ps Luke: No.

Vance: So, but what is it
like, what do you think at the

core, what is it for, for now?

Ps Luke: Like it's good
right now for, uh, accidents.

Like things were emergency emergency room.

Okay.

That's where I buy that ambulance system,

Vance: you know, they have those
responders, they have all the tools and

the infrastructure to handle emergencies.

Okay.

So, so.

Hopefully people don't often
get into emergencies, right?

Um, but I can see how like, you know,
our healthcare system needs to be,

you know, uh, subsidized by insurance.

healthcare plans by companies.

Um, but then the rest of it is getting
subsidized and it feels like it's not

good at anything outside of emergency.

You know what I mean?

And so what does that look like?

What is the future of healthcare look
like when maybe companies like aura,

maybe companies like carrying hands
are actually more on the front lines.

They're actually starting to.

On a conversion rate, rate basis
of healing and helping people

are actually more effective.

Do you think that company healthcare plans
are going to get influenced by being able

to subsidize these things the same way
that Kaiser Blue Shield are being largely

subsidized by these healthcare plans?

Arun: Yeah.

I should jump in here.

I actually think where healthcare is
going is towards this preventative kind

of, yeah, it's going towards this idea.

But we have to pay

Vance: out of pocket, right,
right, right, right, yeah, yeah.

Arun: But I feel like that kind of.

It's kind of pushing the narrative forward
where it's kind of in our control whereas

before it felt like When you went to go
see a doctor It was like almost too late

like you you would go and then they would
discover something whereas now we're

getting all this data That's kind of we
can like for me personally whenever I

wanted any anything to know about myself
I'd have to go see a doctor for us now.

We have all these other tools
that are Like hand that we can see

statistics and numbers early, where
it's like, like you were saying, it's

like the stuff that we can change
without needing to go see a doctor.

Yeah.

But like,

Vance: okay, so let's do
the math really quick.

So, you know, we could try to be to
this, maybe Luke knows off the top

of his head, how much per employee
do you guys think, you know, is the

amount for healthcare like per year?

Um, what I'm saying is like, is
there a future world, so 12, 000,

let's say it's actually for a whole
family of, I have four kids, right?

Let's say it's 25, 000, right?

Something like that.

Right?

So what I'm saying is that, is there
a future world in which I can just

elect for the 5, 000, 6, 000, 7,
Um, plan for emergency at Kaiser.

And then I want the 20, 000 margin.

To invest myself into aura into
whoop into eight sleep, you

know what I'm talking about?

Cause like, I feel like there's so much
wasted healthcare plan money right now.

The

Ps Luke: future is now though.

Vance: Okay.

So talk to us.

I'm excited.

Um, can I do that?

How do I do that?

Ps Luke: I

Vance: own the company.

So I can, no,

Ps Luke: but tell the people
there's a lot of other

Vance: business owners

Ps Luke: on this pod.

Yeah.

So there's these plans called ICHRAs.

These individual contribution for
health reimbursement accounts.

Oh, where you set up how much as an
employer you want to actually allocate for

health care per employee or per family.

So let's say it's a
thousand dollars per month.

Then that's what you're able to spend.

So that makes, make sure that you're
not going over your costs as a company,

but then as an employee, you get to
choose where that money gets divvied up.

You have to choose a health
care plans like you're a

Kaiser or something like that.

But everything else you get to select
up where you can put some money into

FSA, HSA, put it toward caring hand,
put it toward your aura, uh, massages.

And as a result, gym membership, gym
membership, you get to be able to

personalize the benefits that you get.

But also be able to
Make sure is this an HR

Vance: mechanism or is this a
software thing or how does it it's

a mix of people don't know about
this Yeah Can like can he do it?

Can he do it as an employee?

Uh, missing labs, or does he have
to talk to the HR department?

Yeah, the HR has to give me the option

Ps Luke: for it.

So it was a regulatory change, uh,
back in 2014, right after, I guess,

part of the Obamacare piece that
came in, uh, that made this possible.

And then now it's actually
Uh, getting solidified.

It's actually picking up steam.

Vance: So our company's on Gusto.

Many startup companies might be on Gusto.

Are you on Gusto?

We used to be, yeah.

Okay, used to be, right.

Um, so we're on Gusto.

So how do I activate this?

So like currently we're on Gusto
and I think we cover like 90%

You know, and then 10 percent
out of pocket, blah, blah, blah.

Um, how do I switch it
to more like a la carte?

Ps Luke: So this is called Icarus, right?

Just Icarus.

Yeah, Icarus.

So there's two companies that
were connected to, um, take

command health and remodel health.

Uh, both CEOs, founders
is Christians, actually.

Oh, see,

Vance: Christian straight.

Ps Luke: Um, because it actually has
worked really well for small businesses

and nonprofits where healthcare
costs are really skyrocketing.

Um, But this is one thing where they're
interested in us being a part of their

platform because they have software that
helps you to administer plans like this.

Uh, because you have to comply
with, but do I have to tell my

Vance: gusto admin to like, like bring
this company in or how does it work?

Ps Luke: Yeah.

I think I guess logistically has

Vance: like the stock
standard, like correct things

that we have to pick, right?

Yeah.

Ps Luke: But I think it
ultimately would come down to.

Um, you probably turning off the gusto
automated thing, automated ones, working

with one of these platforms and they
have integrations into the payroll

systems of what needs to be deducted.

Okay.

Got it.

Cool.

Um, but yeah, but you would
more so be now interfacing with

these companies around that.

And then for the healthcare
piece, obviously we want

to position ourselves as.

Like that front end for
the employees where they're

dealing more day to day with a

Vance: beautiful,

Ps Luke: proactive sense of
health and then having their.

Kaiser or whatever, other
insurance to be able to do that.

So it's

Vance: kind of a hack, right?

Cause basically as a business
owner though, you're looking

at it, let's say it is 12 K per
person per year that you're paying.

Um, but maybe half of them are in
their early twenties and they never

went to the doctor this past year.

And so there's all that waste.

And so what you're saying is that.

You can put the power into your employee's
hands even further by canceling the stock

standard, um, still giving them up to.

Right.

But not having to prepay that all up
front, because if they choose to customize

it to where, Oh no, I just want the
lowest on Kaiser and I want to take the

margin and I want to do a gym membership.

Maybe they come up with, cause
they never went to the emergency

room, maybe they come up with just
like 5, 000 in a year for the gym.

And then the company then
pockets that margin of seven.

Is that what you're saying?

Ps Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

The company can pocket a margin,
but they also can save into HSA.

Or, or, or you can set

Vance: up a process where, okay, that
employee benefits even further because

the waste gets reinvested, right?

The margin gets reinvested
into an H H S a and you

Arun: got to take this a step
further and say, I can like,

uh, play to earn basically.

If I'm take care of my body,
I should pay less forever.

Like I should just add,
like, continue to do it.

My metrics show I'm good.

So this is what we're working

Ps Luke: on with some companies where.

So, as part of their benefit, if they are
staying, if their employees are staying

active with what they adhere to, what
they're supposed to adhere to, uh, with

the Caring Hand, then we can continue
to add funds into an account that they

can use toward purchases for health
care or lifestyle type of services.

And so there's an incentive for you
to stay active with your health.

And by doing so, you get sort of
more resources that are unlocked.

Um, so even like a reverse
osmosis water filter.

It's something that we just got.

Bro.

This is what we can unlock.

We get it off, we get it cheaper
than you can get off of Amazon.

Wow.

So that's like the Costco benefit.

Yeah.

Of being able to get this.

Vance: Dude.

This is.

If I wasn't trying to solve
generosity, I would be going 13 hours,

14 hours a day at this industry.

Cause it is a huge unlock.

Like honestly, like performing your
fitness to unlock like cool rewards.

If I was part of that system,
I would go hard at the gym.

Of course.

Arun: We're

Vance: doing it for free.

Well, no, no, no.

Cause talk about your fitness journey.

Yeah.

There was an incentive that's true
in this past season and you've

performed better than you've
ever That's true a couple friends

Arun: in my group gave me some
incentives to lose some weight And

and that's why give them some details.

Give them what they want as
much as you're comfortable.

Yeah no, not

Vance: who but like the amount
and like and like What actually

incentivized you to reach?

Arun: Yeah, yeah.

So, um, December last year,
I was around 217 pounds.

Um, we're just hanging out with friends.

Friends are like just making fun, you
know, like just ribbing each other,

telling me, you know, looking a little,
you know, pudgy in the, in the side.

And so then they were like, you
know, if me and a friend, they were

saying, if you guys lose 20 pounds
in two months to start the new year,

um, we'll give you guys 1, 000 each.

And so.

Um, kind of going in, they just
assume, but if either of you guys

miss it, you guys have great friends.

I need to upgrade my friends.

Vance: I'm going to like get real
fat and then upgrade my friends.

Arun: Yeah, but it's crazy.

Cause like, you know, every year
you have these kinds of goals

that you want to hit, but like.

Having a little bit of a cash incentive
really changes the dynamics a little bit.

Well, you hit the goal.

And we hit the goal, yeah.

Me and my friend, we both hit
the goal and so now, you know.

Vance: You lost 20 pounds.

Yeah, 20 pounds,

Arun: yeah.

Bro, so you're at

Vance: 197.

Arun: Yeah, so I was, I had to get down
to, I got down to 190 last Saturday.

I'm at 195 now.

I did a sauna, kind of the
waterway, the waterway cut, but your

Vance: average weight
right now is probably 195.

Yeah.

195.

So 22 pounds.

22.

Yeah.

Let's go.

Where's the rune?

I don't even see him anymore.

Ps Luke: He basically disappeared.

All right.

Yeah.

This is like validation.

So we have this thing with like
accountability partners that you

can just add them in and then
be able to like set that up.

And then as you do the tracking
around that, you can earn the

credits and you can get your.

See, man,

Vance: if it was so clear of like,
especially with wearables now, right?

Like with, with the whoop,
with the aura, right?

Let's just take something simple.

If you, in the next 30 days hit a 10,
000, um, step average, just a simple

thing, like that's, that's obviously
proven to be like a super healthy habit.

Right.

You unlock 50 off of reverse osmosis.

Oh my gosh.

If I wasn't trying to solve
generosity, I would be all over.

But why don't

Arun: the Kaisers of the
world, who have all this stuff?

That's a great question.

Vance: Just incumbents.

I'm not talking about Kaiser,
you know, whatever it is.

No, no, Blue Shield, whatever.

Why not?

Ps Luke: Well, I think this is
where the incentive for the current

model, where in order to get paid as
a healthcare provider, you have to

have a billing code associated with
a diagnosis, with a disease, and

the activity you're doing around it.

So anything that is truly preventative
is not going to be associated with a

billing code that makes sense for you to

Vance: do.

Wow.

So the fundamental business
model is there to keep us sick.

Ps Luke: No, that's honestly, show

Vance: me your incentives.

I'll show you your outcome.

Ps Luke: So I think even
though like the individual.

It's like lawyers.

Sorry, sorry.

Not to dig on lawyers.

But it's like billables,

Vance: right?

Yeah.

It's like, we're going to talk
about, you know, shooting the breeze.

How's your kids doing all day?

Because it's on the
clock every six minutes.

Oh

Arun: man.

I feel like we're about to get into this.

So I just want to touch on this.

Cause, um, we spoke offline about,
you know, government funding, um, for

health organizations, but doge, if you
haven't been following like their cold

goal is to cut government spending.

They're trying to figure out what is
the most efficient way of doing this.

And a lot of what
they're doing is kind of.

Um, initially, let's see if we can
just cut everything and then we'll

see kind of where people are kind of
yelling and like where we need to go.

So, um, the biggest thing in the
news recently was the USAID stuff.

Um, a lot of stuff they're uncovering
seems like wasted spending.

Um, and so like, I've been really
excited about hearing about

this, but there's something you
brought up, which I hadn't seen.

cuts for NIH, which is like
about 4 billion in cuts.

Correct.

Um, so I did a little bit of research
about it, but I'm curious if you

could just tell us a little bit more
about that, and, you know, how that

really is affecting the areas that
you've been kind of working towards.

Yeah,

Ps Luke: for sure.

So I think the headlines you'll see
is that, uh, NIH funding's being cut.

It's going to result in, uh, breakthroughs
not being found, cures not being found.

And what it means is, out of a 35
billion Um, budget four billion

that has been, uh, allocated for
indirect costs are being cut.

Um, if you think about how the, like
the Dukes, the Stanford's of the

world, where went to school, like
where they get money is that it's one

of their professors, researchers gets
a hundred dollars of NIH funding.

There's another 60, 70 that the
university gets as indirect funds.

That they can do whatever
they want with it.

It's supposed to cover, like,
the electricity, uh, the

administration of the overall grant.

But that money is, uh, essentially becomes
that extra funding that these universities

have been growing accustomed to.

If you get a fund from, like, the
grant, from the Gates Foundation

or some of these other foundations,
it's about 10 to 15 percent.

So about 10 or 15 out of 100 that
they will give you in addition

to be able to administer it.

So what they're doing with this NIH cut is
actually saying, literally the money that

is considered overhead, we're going to say
not to give that out and let's actually

allocate that for really direct research.

And that's actually supposed
to make things more efficient.

Obviously would, it obviously
would make things more efficient.

They just had a fixed cost on it.

Vance: Like they're basically saying
that all research is created equal.

So whatever research, we're just
going to give you an extra 60 on it.

Yeah.

Like that's so silly.

Ps Luke: And the thing is like, these
are pre negotiated by university.

Yeah.

So Duke is looking 63%.

Uh, Harvard is 69%.

Um, And all these
universities have their own.

How did they determine that?

That's so crazy.

What was this like over years
if it's like, have been able

to get into this arrangement?

Because somebody went to a
dinner with a politician.

Yeah, exactly.

So

Arun: there's no

Ps Luke: guarantee they're using this
money to No, it's not for overhead.

It's like going to their endowment.

Exactly.

Especially with all the
money in the endowment.

If there is such a dire opportunity
or dire need and an opportunity.

Funded from your endowment.

Exactly.

Funded from that.

So it's just like, look at what
is above the line, below the line.

Yeah.

And if you are saying that this is now
going to get things below the line,

that really should be above the line.

Yeah.

Then, okay, you should be adjusting.

You know what

Vance: Elon and this administration
is doing, is what a lot of

people that have trouble with
finances should do personally.

Yeah.

Which is just.

Freeze all of your cards and
see which collectors come

that you really need to pay.

But if it's like Netflix and your 12
other subscriptions that you don't

really need and you have a problem with
money, maybe just like keep it frozen.

You'll probably be like
over water, not under water.

That's literally like what
Elon's doing with the government.

It's like, guys, did you know that we're
like trillions of dollars worth of debt?

Right.

Let's just freeze all the cards
and let's see who screams.

And then people are screaming because
like us foreign aid, you know, all

the, all the people are coming out.

Hey, you, you just spread misinformation.

You said that you tweeted that it was 50
million worth of condoms sent to Gaza.

It wasn't Gaza.

It was Mozambique.

And he's like, Oh man, I'm
going to get some stuff wrong.

But that's still a lot of Congress.

You guys are missing the point.

Yeah, you're missing the point.

You can say whatever country.

That's just maybe too much.

Laughter

Arun: That's cool though.

That's cool though.

It's funny when I did the research I was
thinking maybe you were going to take

the angle of we shouldn't be cutting.

We need this money for healthcare.

All the videos I saw with people
complaining, we can't keep the lights on.

We won't have the infrastructure.

And I was going to come here and be like,
I don't know, maybe it might be okay.

You know, that's how kind of
what you're thinking as well.

I mean, it all

Vance: adds up, but I mean, 4 billion
in comparison to the trillions we

have to cut is just like a blip, man.

And then people screaming about that.

It's like, we got bigger problems.

Arun: But it the tip of the iceberg.

Like it feels like they're just
scratching the surface of life.

Really, just corruptness that's gone
unchecked, and something I didn't know

actually was that this Idea has been
in the government for a while this

idea of like government efficiency
and like this man They've done it a

Vance: couple times.

They've done

Arun: it but then it's
kind of just actually doge

Vance: is just a renamed version
of the entity Already existed.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I

Arun: didn't know that
and so and I think Barack

But maybe it's because you don't have
this kind of outside force that's

like really pushing for Zero reason
other than he just wants to see it

all cleared up Whereas I think it was
like an internal government effort

where you can kind of get convinced.

Honestly, I think it's

Vance: because of x Yeah, I think elon
has Has been able to Have a megaphone.

Yeah that the government either Never
had the courage to have before or

maybe incentives that they shouldn't

Ps Luke: right, right,

Vance: you know have before well,
or he's just full send He's like,

you know, whether you agree with
me or not, you're gonna know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ps Luke: No, I think the transparency
is really key for all of us the other

thing I was hearing from a advisor in
terms of perspective since obviously

Trump has been very polarizing to say
the least with all of us but There is

the reality that the status quo for
healthcare, for how the government runs.

I don't think anyone would try to defend
that this is the best system out there.

Exactly.

So, but change management, the
hardest thing is for people to be

willing to actually make a change.

So in the most cynical way, even
this advisor, who's like definitely

not a Trump fan, he was saying.

Uh, if the only thing that Trump does
is to dismantle the establishment and

what's there, at least on the healthcare
side was what he was referring to, but

in all these other areas, then it forces
us to actually come up with a different.

Direction a different plan around these
things and that's what is really needed

to actually get any type of change
to occur If you can't stick with the

status quo You actually do need to move
to something else and essentially is

taking away the status quo that option.

Hey, that's

Vance: intellectual honesty Yeah, right,
you know, even if you don't like him

The ability to come to that conclusion,
I think is, is at least honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

Yeah.

Arun: Cool.

Cool.

Well, before we wrap up, I know we
kind of go through this idea of like

the founder's journey and all of that.

You've talked through, you know, a few
pivots that you've had to make, but

curious, like one, what is one of the
most important things you've learned?

Cause this is your officially
your first founder's journey

that you've been on, right?

Yeah.

You've been part of other startups,
but like this is the first one.

Yeah.

So what is the one biggest piece of
advice that you would give to people

that are kind of going on this journey?

Um, that you've learned, um, doing this.

Ps Luke: Yeah, I think this keep moving
towards something that you're seeing the

pull in the market for, um, interestingly
enough, it's in the process of selling

girls cup cookies with my daughters
where I've seen, Oh, this is truly

what product market fit looks like,

where

Ps Luke: as we're like walking down a
parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

People will stop and say, can I
get Girl Scout cookies because

they like want this so much.

It's going to solve a pain point for them.

And if you're on the founder journey
and you realize that what you're

doing is either if you don't have the
problem yourself and it's not solving

your problem, or if there's others
that are not seeing this problem and

like need to get it solved right now,
then there's still something else

that you need to be peeling back.

Once you find that, then go
full steam ahead around it.

But, um, that will solve everything
if there's that demand for solving

a problem in the market for you.

Cool.

Arun: Amazing.

Um, and before we, uh, check out,
would you want to tell the listeners

a little bit more about Hypecon Dubai?

Vance: Man.

Uh, yeah, I wish I could

I know.

That's gonna be awesome.

Yeah, I mean, I know the team is hard at
work, kind of finalizing all the details.

Um, Arun will be sure to put in the
show notes the link, which is now live.

Yep.

Yep.

For a Hype Con Dubai, which is literally
happening in just a couple months.

Mm-hmm . And so if you're gonna make
the trip there, the journey there, you

probably wanna snag your flight tickets.

ASAP, um, unless you're
going by boat and train, I

commend you.

I commend you for that.

Um, but yeah, better,
better through em, Emirates.

Um, but it's groundbreaking, right?

Uh, I've never done a hype event in Dubai.

We've done one in London.

We've done one in Frankfurt.

We've done one in New York, Miami.

Uh, we've done one, obviously
many in the Silicon Valley.

And so one of the most
innovative cities in the world.

We're going to break ground.

And so maybe you don't want to miss it.

You should be there.

Arun: Yeah, cheers.

Um, thank you, Pastor Luke.

It was a really great podcast.

I know a lot of people here, especially
myself, learned a lot about, you know,

the medical field and how it's done.

Um, shout out to Doge and everything
they're doing to make it a little bit more

efficient and, uh, decided to check out
the app and all the changes you're making.

So, um, cheers to that.

Thanks.

Awesome.