Hype Pod - The Hype Network Podcast

Arun Koshy: Welcome to the Hype Pod,
where we have real conversations on

business tech, innovation and culture
trends, all from a faithful perspective.

Today we have Pastor Alan Yai.

He's a forensic psychologist who has
worked with inmates in state prisons,

a professor of psychology at San
Jose State, and a pastor of church.

He spent his career understanding what
makes people tick, from criminals to cops,

to successful entrepreneurs, all while
exploring the profound connections between

modern psychology and the mind of Christ.

Pastor Allen, it's an
honor and nice to meet you.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah, nice to meet you.

Thank you so much for having me on today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arun Koshy: Um, tell us a little
bit, I actually wanna just jump in

to kind of your story a little bit.

You, you told me a little bit about it.

Um, but you actually were doubted,
you know, starting early, right?

Yeah.

And tell us a little bit into
that and how you actually then

became a forensic psychologist.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

So yeah, just really quickly,
when I was, um, in second grade,

I got put into special education.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I just was having a very hard time
reading and writing just, and my, it

felt like my brain wasn't working.

Mm-hmm.

And I just kind of did that for years.

I was actually not very motivated
when it came to academics.

I didn't really try because of that.

Um, you know, they always had to pull
me out to go to like a different class.

Mm-hmm.

And that always felt weird.

And so that was just my norm.

And then in seventh grade, I
remember my school set, like,

let's, let's give you a try.

Let's put you like into like,
quote unquote regular classes

and let's see how you do.

And it wasn't even like six months
in, they're like, yeah, nevermind.

We're gonna put you back in
remedial classes and uh, just

kind of get you to do that.

And then it wasn't until senior
year of high school where.

I had an assignment that was due, I had
one, and this is back when we would like

write our like essays, not type 'em out.

And so the teacher had asked for all
of our essays to be turned in and

I just had like one sentence left.

Mm-hmm.

So I walked up to her and I said, Hey, can
I really like quickly finish this with,

if not it's fine, I'll just submit it.

And her response was just, and it was
kinda like bustling in the classroom.

Like it wasn't, um, you know,
everyone was just kind of talking

and passing their papers up.

And so she just looked at me, she's
like, do you think you're special?

And I was just kind of
confused by that question.

Yeah.

'cause I was asking if I
could turn in my homework.

Yeah.

Right.

I was like, no.

Um, she's like, well why do you think I'd
give you extra time to turn in your paper?

And I was like, oh, so if the answer's
no, that's fine, I'll just submit it.

Right.

And she's like, well, it doesn't
really matter what you do anyway,

by this time the class I kind
of got kind of settled in.

Mm-hmm.

So everyone's kind of listening.

She's like, well it doesn't really matter
if you do turn it in or don't because

it's not like you're gonna college anyway.

Geez.

And my response, and I don't
recommend it, but my response, and

it was just almost out of like.

Disappointment in her.

Mm-hmm.

I just picked up my paper
and I ripped it in half.

Mm.

And I just like laid it on her like desk.

Mm-hmm.

And like the entire class got completely
quiet and like looked and I just

walked back to my seat and that was
like my mentality around academics.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, oh, well
you're not smart enough.

You can't really read,
you can't really write.

Your teachers don't even believe in you.

Yeah.

And so I had no, no, um, plans
or ambitions to go to college.

And so it wasn't until I randomly
in the middle of summer between,

you know, graduation and college
starting, I talked to a friend and it

was more like the spontaneous thing
of, Hey, you should come to college.

You should move where I'm moving and
come to college and just try it out.

And it was like this spontaneous thing.

But looking back now, I know it was
God like speaking to me because now I

can pinpoint those moments when like
God was like highlighting something.

And so sure enough, I applied to a
community college and my very first

day of college, I just had this prayer.

At the end of the evening, I was just
like walking back to my car and I just

said, God, if you get me to a doctorate.

Um, I'll use it for your glory.

And it's like my brain got healed, but
it was happening in like progressively.

Mm-hmm.

So like, school just became
super easy for me after that.

Wow.

Wow.

Like my bachelor's degree was so
much easier than high school for me.

My master's was so much easier than
my bachelor's and my doctorate,

like I say, it was easier, but
like a doctorate like can kill you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

It's very hard.

Yeah.

Um, but it was just out of, but
I had the confidence of knowing

like I'm gonna be able to do it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And what's so funny now across
like different spheres that I

work in, the one thing that I'm
recognized for is my writing.

Um, and now because of tragedy, g Bt,
everyone's like, was that tragedy?

Bt No, it was not tragedy.

It was my brain.

Right, right, right.

But what I really appreciate about that
is like, it has nothing to do with me.

I just, it's, I.

Appreciate how people
recognize what God healed.

Mm-hmm.

And so like, it becomes moments
of testimony whenever people

say like, oh, that's, that's
amazing writing or whatever.

I'm like, well, lemme tell you why.

It's amazing.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's just something I
always used to like glorify God.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

I love that.

Talk about a little bit about
your upbringing and faith as well.

'cause it sounds like it was a key
component to helping you overcome, you

know, some of these things were, some
people might have reverted a little bit.

Yeah.

And you actually used that as like
a No, I'm gonna overcome this.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

So I was fortunate enough to be
raised in like a very dynamic

Pentecostal old school kind of church.

My dad's actually a deacon of a church.

So like the church that we would
attend as kids was the one that he

founded with like some other people.

And so that was just like
a, just so much exposure.

Like we saw so many
different things happen.

Um, and so interestingly, and I do look
back on it, even though like I had the.

Insecurity around, like,
I'm not good at school.

Mm-hmm.

I never really internalized
it as an identity.

Right.

I never was like, well, I'm
just dumb and I can never do

it and I'm not gonna, whatever.

For some reason it was kind of like,
well, that's just not what I'm good at.

Yeah.

And, but I never felt bad
about myself because of it.

And so, you know, looking back I could
definitely see how like the voice

of God and have people around me who
just would continually speak into me.

Mm-hmm.

How that was kind of like
the counter to to the lie.

'cause it could have very
easily been internalized.

Yeah.

But my mom actually, it's, it's so
funny 'cause like, even though she knew

all the stuff about me academically,
she would always say to me as a young

kid, so you're gonna be a doctor one
day, you're gonna be a doctor one day.

And my mom was like, all right.

Like, that's like a lovely
motherly thing to say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we all know that's not gonna happen.

Mm-hmm.

And so the fact that like, she kept
speaking that over me and then it

like ultimately I got my doctorate.

Yeah.

It was just like this really profound
moment of like your words and what you

speak into people so true are profound.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, I think that was kind
of the biggest thing that.

Allowed me to not internalize
any of the negative.

Arun Koshy: Yeah, that's good.

And then you picked forensic psychology,
but how did that end up happening?

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah, so I,
when I first got, uh, into

psychology, I did not care for it.

I was in high school.

I had a friend who took
the, took it as an elective.

Mm-hmm.

The psychology class.

And she asked if I could join her.

I was like, I'm not taking psychology.

That sounds like the most
horrible thing in the

Arun Koshy: world.

Yeah, yeah.

And

Alen Yaghoubi: she's like, just do it.

I, I, you need a class,
we'll just do it together.

It's our senior year.

Who cares.

So I took it and after two weeks I
was like, I'm dropping this class.

Mm-hmm.

It is so boring.

I can't sit here for the
next year and do this.

And she just, she begged me and then
she offered to do my homework for me.

I was like, all right, I'll easy.

I'll stick around for a year.

I could do that.

And weirdly enough, it wasn't until
we covered sleep disorders, which I

don't do anything related to sleep
disorders, but it was that topic that

really hooked me in just this idea of
like, oh, people have like these sleep

problems, like narcolepsy or insomnia.

And from that moment
on, I was just hooked.

So everything and so I'm actually curious

Arun Koshy: about this.

Is it.

The psychology, like behind
why those things come about?

Yeah.

Or the effects of having the disorder.

No,

Alen Yaghoubi: the psychology
of why it happened.

Yeah.

So like, so you know, narcolepsy is
more of like a neurobiological disorder.

Mm-hmm.

So it's less about like your emotional
state or what you're feeling or thinking.

It's more about like the
biology of your brain.

Mm-hmm.

And so that, I just
found that fascinating.

It's like, oh, people just fall
asleep just randomly on the spot.

I'm like, how do they walk?

How do they drive?

How do they get around?

Right.

And so we ended up going to like
Stanford University as like a project.

And we, we, they had a narcolepsy
lab where they had fish.

Who had narcolepsy.

Oh, what?

So they like swim and then they'd like
fall asleep and flip to the top like

they were dead and they'd wake up and
just, just super fascinated by that.

And then my psychology teacher would just
do like these little experiments mm-hmm.

Throughout the year, but wouldn't tell us.

Yeah.

And then like reveal after the
fact of like, oh, I wore the

same outfit for a week trait.

Oh, that's really cool to see.

Like if you guys would pick up on it.

Uh, and like I never noticed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think like some of my friends
were like, I think she's struggling

financially, which speaks to like
the social psychology of like what

we think of people when we see them
in like the same kind of clothes.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: But it wasn't until that
that I really started to like enjoy it.

Mm-hmm.

And it was my last day of school,
it was like graduation day.

I went up to her, my psychology
teacher, and I said, I think

this is the thing I want to do.

Mm-hmm.

I think I wanna pursue psychology,
not knowing like the academic

endeavor entailed like a
bachelor's, a master's, a doctorate.

And I was like, I just
dunno what I would wanna do.

Mm-hmm.

And so she just gave me this sheet
of paper and it had all the different

subspecialties on it, like child
psychology, sports psychology, and the

very last one was forensic psychology.

Mm-hmm.

And it was like a simple,
generalized, one liner of.

Applying psychological principles
to the criminal justice system.

Mm-hmm.

And again, looking back now, I know
it was God, but when I read that, it's

like something within me was like,
that's what you're meant to pursue.

Wow.

And then she just told me about this,
um, like world renowned forensic

psychologist, um, that was in our area.

Mm-hmm.

And she's like, you know, if you can get
five minutes with him, if you could just

get him from his office walking to his
car and you could talk to him, you're

gonna be advanced so much in your career
because he has such wealth of knowledge.

Arun Koshy: Mm-hmm.

Alen Yaghoubi: And I was like,
oh my God, that's awesome.

And that was kinda like my first
exposure to like mentorship.

Arun Koshy: Okay.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And so I just went about
my business, started school, went to

community college, took my classes.

And it wasn't until I transferred
to a four year college where I was

just going through the catalog.

Mm-hmm.

And I saw.

You know, intro to forensic
psychology, and it was taught by that

professor that she had mentioned.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, this is like amazing.

Like what a unique opportunity
where she was talking about five

minutes, but I get a whole semester.

Right, right.

So I absolutely took his class and then
connected with him, asked if I could be

his TA that following semester, and I just
remember like spending hours and hours,

like in his office or like at a cafe,
grading papers, helping with whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And just thinking like she said,
five minutes would get me ahead.

Yeah.

And I'm spending hours
and hours every week.

Arun Koshy: And could you tell
instantly from like just being

under him how amazing he was at?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Just like, he had
so much experience and so much,

uh, and he was very real about it.

Like, he's like, you know, when
you're early in your career, you're

trying to impress people, you're
trying to look a certain way.

He's like, but once you get to
a certain spot, you realize like

you actually need to give back.

Mm-hmm.

So like, he just had like a lot of
insight that went beyond just the field.

Yeah.

And so I really appreciated that.

But I quite literally asked him, I'm like,
I want to be a forensic psychologist.

I want to do what you do.

Mm-hmm.

How do I do it?

And he literally just gave
me step by step instruc.

And I just mimick it.

Nice sense.

I didn't DV at all.

Yeah.

And then I ended up running into him
years later and, you know, just catching

up and he's like, what do you do now?

I'm like, I'm a forensic psychologist.

And he was just kind of like shocked by
that because he's like, wow, you actually

did it because it's a law, but yeah.

Yeah.

But when God has something on
you, you like, you, you just

have to put in the time of the
commitment and things will happen.

So.

Yeah.

So

Arun Koshy: was it you wanted to be
a forensic psychologist to teach?

Or did you want to be practicing?

Alen Yaghoubi: I wanted
to be practicing, yeah.

So for me, and I always have like
this weird spectrum in my mind.

Mm-hmm.

It's like I see the world in a spectrum
from like Mother Teresa to like Hitler.

Right.

That's my spectrum of the world.

And I'm like, what causes people to be
placed anywhere along that spectrum?

Mm-hmm.

Like what is it?

Yeah.

Is it, is it like situation?

Is it the way that they were brought up?

Is it environmental factors?

And then can we do anything about it?

Mm.

Can somebody who's closer to like
the extreme set of like violence,

can you actually move them?

Along towards like the
Mother Teresa side mm-hmm.

Uh, through intervention,
through whatever it might be.

And so that's always been like a, a
question that I always ask myself.

And so that's kind of what
got me into, um, into forensic

psychology in the first place.

Yeah.

It was just like that intrigue
of like, why do, like, why do

people act the way they do?

Mm-hmm.

Like what causes people to do that?

And then for me, one of the biggest
like psychological studies that

was like pretty profound was like
the Stanford prison study mm-hmm.

With, uh, Zimbardo.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know if like Dr.

Zimbardo

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Explain it for the audience.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

So just a study where he took
graduate students and he, um, put

them in this like fake mock prison.

Mm-hmm.

In, within like 24 to 48 hours, the
fake correctional officers started

to become extremely like, uh, like
inappropriate and like violent,

like towards, and this is all fake.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they actually start to act out
like in a very like, inappropriate way.

Mm-hmm.

Like, um, abusing authority, uh,
trying to make, uh, shame them.

Mm-hmm.

Like all this stuff.

And he ended up writing a
book called El Lucifer Effect.

And it's like this whole idea of
like, how do good people become bad?

Mm-hmm.

Or how do good people become evil?

Yeah.

Okay.

And because that fake study
was replicated, like, uh, let's

look replicated in anywhere
where you have authority mm-hmm.

And you don't have any oversight.

Yeah.

People will abuse their power.

Um, which, you know, speaks
to a very Lucifer like thing.

Right.

And so for me, that's
always been interesting.

It's like, why do people end up that way?

Can we do anything to intervene?

Um, so that's always been.

Yeah.

Like the thing I'm exploring.

So no, I've never wanted
to go into academics.

I actually was so burned out from school.

Yeah.

That, like, when I was asked to
teach as a guest lecturer, I was

like, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna go back to school.

But it was, it was different.

I like went into clinical, I worked in
prisons for many, many years and then

I had the opportunity to go and teach.

Yeah.

So I did.

And the students were just so
engaging and just so like interested.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That I was like, you know, like
if an opportunity ever presents

itself, I'll, I'll teach.

And I had a colleague who, uh, worked at
San Jose State and she's like, we have

a class if you're willing to like teach.

Mm-hmm.

And I'll, you know, put
in a good word for you.

Yeah.

You can interview and
we'll see what happens.

And that was seven years ago.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And so, like, my favorite part is when
students reach out and ask like, how

to become a forensic psychologist.

That's cool.

What they have to do.

And I almost feel like the mentor I had.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm not as old as him.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but it's really cool just to
be like, well this is what I did.

And they have so many questions around
like, academics and career options and

like salary, like how do you tie all that
together and like, what are your options?

And you know, with me, I'm so.

Like, I do a lot of different things.

I'm not just doing one thing.

So I always like to tell them
that like, yeah, yeah, you could

do so many different things.

You don't have to pick one job and
do that for the rest of your life.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

What I like is like a, it's
like a full circle moment.

You had a, a teacher that kind of tried
to stunt a little bit of your growth

and you had a really good mentor and now
you are actually that mentor for Yeah.

You know, many kids moving forward.

But I actually wanna dive into
a little bit about what you do.

You say you do many things.

You have a private practice to
kind of help, um, one do forensic

psychology for a state penitentiary.

Yep.

Correct.

And then also you do state evals for
professions like cops, firefighters.

I actually wanted to, to just
examine a little bit about

the work that you do there.

So when you, um, examine criminals,
for example, they're, you know, do

really malicious things and you have
to understand the behavior then.

And you mentioned some of the like
sympathizing a little bit Yeah.

With like how they kind
of get to that point.

Yep.

Um, and is there is any way to kind of
fix that, which is a little bit, you know.

What goes along with the faith aspects
that you kind of bring into this.

Um, and then there's the side of
evaluating cops as well, and you brought

up the kind of story of like, you
know, this, uh, study at Stanford Yeah.

That happened.

I'm curious, the distinction between
criminals and I just bring up cops, but

you know, really anybody in that state
is the line actually much thinner than

we think about what drives somebody
that has power and to use it for

harm or versus using it to protect?

Alen Yaghoubi: Oh yeah.

I think, I think we all feel better
about ourselves because we think we're so

vastly different from like other people.

Yeah.

But I think even from like a spiritual
context, like we're all sinners.

Mm-hmm.

And we've all fallen short.

Yeah.

So it's like that reality is
true across like the spectrum.

But yeah, it is just
circumstances I think.

Um, I mean there's obviously psychological
traits that play a part in things,

but when I sit down with people at
the prison, for example, and I go

through their chart and I go through
their history and I go into every

nook and cranny of like their life.

I'm not surprised that
they ended up in prison.

Mm.

It's like, yeah.

Like I would be shocked if
you didn't end up in prison.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's like, I, I even said this
like last week when I was, um, preaching,

um, what whatever TV or movies have shown
about like the criminal justice system,

it's all like so much more fluffy mm-hmm.

In Hollywood than it is in reality.

Okay.

It is so much more worse in
reality what people go through.

Um, and so when you sit down and you
talk to someone and, and I get society,

I, I appreciate society doesn't care.

Like society's like, you're a criminal.

You've committed a crime, you should
be in prison, that's your punishment.

Mm-hmm.

We don't care why.

Mm-hmm.

And I get that.

I appreciate that.

That's that's fine.

But when you're sitting across the table
from someone and then they're like,

yeah, I have ex, they've experienced like
extreme abuse of all kinds, being exposed

to like extreme forms of like violence
and drugs and I mean, the list is endless.

And you're like, you're
shocked and you're like, wow.

Yeah.

It's like, and then you're, I just
end up having so much more like

appreciation for my upbringing.

I was like, it wasn't
perfect, but it wasn't that.

Right.

Right.

And so, yeah.

And then I think with like on
the other side of that spectrum,

I think, again, when I sit down
with, with like the law enforcement

or public safety people mm-hmm.

Like police officers, firefighters,
whatever it might be, a lot of them,

what's interesting is that they're trying
to present as like these perfect people

of like never doing anything wrong.

Right.

And that's actually a red flag for us.

Like when we were.

Assessing for that.

'cause we know everyone has a past.

Mm-hmm.

We know everyone has made mistakes.

The idea is like, was your mistake last
week or was your mistake like a year ago?

Mm-hmm.

Because that makes a difference because
you're we're talking about like judgment

and pulsivity, like things like that.

Yeah.

And so we'll always tell people like right
off the bat, like, we understand you have

a past, the worst thing you can do is lie.

Arun Koshy: Are they hooked up to a
lie detector or is this more you're

just trying to read them without that?

They

Alen Yaghoubi: go through a polygrapher.

Okay.

So they have that, but that's not with me.

Okay.

Got it.

I get the results of that
uhhuh, but that's not what I do.

Okay.

But I'll see the results of like, if they
had a, we call it a significant reaction.

'cause you can't say
somebody's necessarily lying.

Oh.

Because they might just
be nervous or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, but I'll see that.

But, but our thing is always
looking for integrity.

Okay.

Like, that's the biggest thing.

And it's so funny, the, the people
who try to present as like these

perfect beings, they'll like lie about
things that like everyone's done.

Like, like one common question we ask is
like, what is the most aggressive thing

you've ever done when feeling angry?

Mm-hmm.

And there are people who are like.

I've never gotten angry.

I'm like, that's what you have.

Yeah.

Because you're a human being, right?

Of course.

You've gotten angry.

Yeah.

I was like, no, I never have.

I was like, you're, and I'll ask
that question, and then Right.

When they respond like that, I will
look at their psych profile mm-hmm.

Because we have like their testing.

Yeah.

And I'll be like, I bet anything like
their, uh, on their, uh, we call it a pi,

so like positive impression management.

Mm-hmm.

Like how you present yourself, but
you're trying to make yourself look

really, really good in the testing.

Yeah.

Like the way you answer.

Mm-hmm.

I'll be like, I bet that's elevated.

Yeah.

I bet they, like, they try to like
appear as like a perfect angel.

Yeah.

And I'll just jump to that really
quick while I ask that question,

and sure enough, it's like elevated
and then they're confirming

it by just acting like that.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

But

Alen Yaghoubi: the other guys who
get it, they're like, oh yeah,

I've like punched the wall, I've
thrown something, I've broken this.

I've, you know, they just own it.

Right.

Right.

And it's like, okay,
well that's, that's fair.

Mm-hmm.

And so then you just kind of realize
really quickly, like everyone's

dealing with the same stuff.

Mm.

Is just oftentimes, you know,
especially as kids like.

Children are learning how to like navigate
their emotions, navigate their thoughts.

And if you don't have like a good
parental figure who can give you that?

It doesn't have to have, always
have to be your mom and dad.

It could be like a teacher.

Mm-hmm.

It could be a mentor, a coach, whatever.

But if you don't have that,
you're not gonna learn it.

And what I always like to say is
like the criminal justice system

are just externalized systems that
somebody failed to internalize.

Mm-hmm.

So like you did something bad,
so you go to a judge because

you exercise poor judgment.

Mm-hmm.

So now a judge has to make a
good judgment on your behalf.

True.

Mm-hmm.

You lack the ability to control yourself.

So now we're gonna put you in a prison
where all there is is structure.

Mm-hmm.

So we will control you because
you couldn't control yourself.

That makes sense.

And it's like all these things you're
supposed to learn as a child, but if your

parents are abusing you and you're being
given drugs and you're being exposed to

violence and you're worried about your
safety and you have no food, you're

not gonna worry about those things.

Mm-hmm.

You're just trying to survive.

Yeah.

And that's basically what prisons are.

Yeah.

They're just.

You know, entities full of people
who were trying to survive.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

And so actually this touches on a topic
that, you know, I like, you know, talking

to my friends about, um, which is like
that idea of like nature versus nurture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, and so you, you kind of touched
on it a little bit where you can see

a lot of the lack of nurture for these
people early on that leads to kind

of, you know, who they are today,
but there is a nature component.

Yeah.

Which, you know, you, with your science
background kind of understand a little bit

better than me, but like what, where would
you put that mix of how much is nature and

how much is nurture when it comes to like.

People and how they end up acting.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah, I think so.

There's like no like number
unfortunately where we can do

60% is this and 40% is that.

But there definitely is an interplay.

And I think, you know, from the nature
perspective, like what we look at

from a, like strictly nature, 'cause
personality is actually shaped in nurture.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but temperament is something
that you're kind of born with.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, what are your
kind of like, what are you

predisposed to just as an infant?

Even like, right.

Like there are some infants that are
hypersensitive and like are irritable

and crying all the time, and then there's
ones that are just kinda like calm and

smiling and laughing or don't do anything.

Yeah.

And you hear it with adults
speaking, they're like, oh,

there's such a good baby.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Like, we even give it a label.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, you're not being
loud and you're not interrupting.

Yeah.

So you are a good baby for being silent.

Right.

And it's like a baby that's a little
fussy or cries too much or like, oh,

they're, you know, they just have
this, or we try to like justify it.

Yeah.

And those are like things
that are not trained.

Mm-hmm.

Or like nurture has nothing to do
with, but what's more important

is like, how does a parent.

Actually meet the need of
someone's like nature, right?

Mm-hmm.

So like if there is a baby
whose temperament is that,

they're just more fussy.

Mm-hmm.

When there's a parent who's not being able
to meet that need, that becomes a nurture.

Mm-hmm.

But then there's a disconnect because
it's like, I have a need and you're

not, you're not helping meet that need.

Mm-hmm.

And so then I learn like, well, you're
the person that's supposed to help

take care of me, but you're not.

Mm-hmm.

And so then that's how
it interplays together.

But the other aspect of nature
is like even in, in vitro, right?

Like when a mother is pregnant, like what
they're exposed to completely impacts

how they're gonna develop from a, like
a, from a neurobiological standpoint.

Mm-hmm.

Like are they being exposed to
drugs while the mom's pregnant?

Mm-hmm.

Like, is she drinking alcohol?

Is she under a lot of stress?

Is she in like a domestic
violence situation?

There's like so many different things
that could put stress on a baby.

Yeah.

And that's all nature.

Yeah.

Because that's all nurture impacting
the nature because it's really the

development That's interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And then you have a baby that's
born and then you're like,

whoa, why are they so irritable?

Or why is it like this?

And why is it like that?

And it's like, yeah, they
just feed into each other.

But what's really interesting, and I've
been thinking about this a little bit, is.

You know, we talk about nature, but then
we talk about like just the word of God.

Yeah, yeah.

Like how we have like an old
nature and then a new nature.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Uhhuh.

And it's like how does this, how
does this like conversation, right.

How do you kind of bring it into like this
third dynamic of like, well, what about

the new nature that we've been given?

Mm-hmm.

Like the nature of Christ.

And for me, like that's always
interesting because every believer is

still struggling with a sinful nature.

Right, right, right.

And yet we're promised and
we've adopted a new nature.

And so it's like this reality
of like new nature, old nature,

environment and like how do all these
three things like play together?

Yeah.

And I think it all comes down to
like what you, like for me, I'm a big

advocate of like your thought life.

Yes.

Like what you think is the
most important thing about you.

And even like scripture,
we'll talk about how like.

You are transformed by
the renewing of your mind.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you know, Jesus saves us, but he
doesn't transform us in the sense of like,

he can't get us to think differently.

Mm-hmm.

He just tells us, think differently.

Yeah.

He says, take captive every thought.

Um, think what I think, believe my
words, like carry my word, like it's

like a necklace around your neck.

Like, don't go anywhere without
always being mindful of my work.

Right.

Because thoughts shape everything.

And so what you think about yourself,
what you think about God, what you think

about the world is all shaped from like
that perspective of like your mindset.

Yeah.

And so for me, it's like your environment.

Like things happen to you all the
time, but you know, it's this idea

of like, well, why do different
people react to different things

and other people react differently?

For example, like if you're like me and
you, we could both be in a car accident.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

We could be in the same car,
in the same car accident.

Mm-hmm.

And I might get like super
anxious, uh, about driving on

the freeway from that point on.

And you might just be like, eh.

It's just, you know,
unfortunate, but yeah.

Yeah, I'll be fine.

And then you just kinda move on.

Yeah.

And it's like from a psychological,
but also spiritual perspective,

it's like fundamentally, what's
the difference between us?

Mm-hmm.

Why can I no longer drive on the freeway
and have so much anxiety around it?

And why are you just like,
you know, it happened, but I

gotta get to work, so, yeah.

Yeah.

So I'll see you later and you just
get in your car and you leave.

Yeah.

It's like, what's the difference
between those two people?

And a lot of it is just around.

What you believe.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like the fear of like,
well, what if like, now I'm unsafe.

And like having this fear of
like, well, what if I get hurt?

And like, what if this happens again?

And what does it mean that
I got in a car accident?

And like, people have like all these
regrets and all these emotions and

all these thoughts, and it's like
we're actually instructed to not

be victimized by our own thoughts.

We're told to like be in control of them.

Mm-hmm.

And I think a lot of people
struggle with that because

they, they believe everything.

They think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they believe everything.

They feel not realizing that
you're not the byproduct of

your thoughts and your feelings.

You're the byproduct of what he said.

Mm.

And I think that's where like a
lot of people struggle when it

comes to like developing identity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it, it could be 'cause
there's so many people, right.

Well, that nature argument,
so many people use the claim

of like, I was born that way.

Yes.

Whatever it might be.

Yeah.

Whatever

Arun Koshy: it might be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: It's like,
well, I was born that way.

And it's like, that's the like
pettiest excuse in the world.

Right?

Right.

Like, that means nothing.

Like angry people can say
like, well I was born that way.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm just gonna go around being
violent and having violent outbursts

and being aggressive towards everyone.

Right.

But society's like, we don't
care if you're born that way.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Or.

Any type of like, dysfunction.

If you see it, like you might have
a desire, you might have like an

inclination towards that thing.

Yes, yes.

But that doesn't mean you
have to give into that thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think the greatest like lie
is that people start to become

what they feel like, because I feel
this way, I must be this thing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And that's the greatest lie.

Yeah.

It's like, no, you're, you're
something despite what you feel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and that's completely in
scripture of like, do not be anxious.

Like, we're literally given commands
about how to control our emotions

and how to control our thoughts.

Um, and I think people struggle
with that from a practical sense.

Yeah.

Like, well, how do I do it?

But I think the first step is
like, well, just don't believe.

Just because you're feeling
anxious doesn't mean you're a

person who suffers from anxiety.

And it doesn't mean that
you are controlled by that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you could feel anxious to do
public speaking, but you could still

do public speaking and feel anxious.

Mm-hmm.

You could do both.

Yeah.

Right.

You could start a company
and feel insecure.

You could, like why are you waiting to
feel secure before you start the thing?

You wanna start?

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Do it.

Being insecure.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

I actually really like this.

I mean, you said it really well
where it's, it's nature, but

then nurture can impact nature.

Right.

And it's kind of, I feel like that maybe
that's, I'm, I'm asking you all these

things because now I can, uh, stalk some
ammo when I go into this argument next.

But, um, I, I really like that it's
like this idea that, you know, it

really has to be nature early on, right?

Yeah.

Because there's no nurture really
happening yet until you're born.

And then once you're born, nurture starts
to kick in and it can change a lot of what

nature might have you inclined towards.

Right.

Um, but I would actually be curious to
hear what you would have to say, um,

around this argument about, you know.

If you are, you know,
let's say born this way.

Mm-hmm.

Like how do you form
that kind of resiliency?

You talked about like, there's this
idea of like rewiring your brain,

like cognitive behavioral therapy.

Yep.

You talked about, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but you've actually mentioned that
it's like tied to faith as well, right?

Yeah.

So describe the two, because this
is actually done without faith, but

it's really tied to faith a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: I think something that
we had talked about was like this

idea of like, the world gives the
language to spiritual things because

the world doesn't know any better.

Mm-hmm.

So like psychology for example, right?

We have so much language around, we just
add secular language around things that,

that the bible's already talked about.

Mm-hmm.

So like, you know, what we call
trauma, the Bible calls, or

what the world calls trauma.

The Bible calls being
attacked by the enemy.

Mm-hmm.

Like he came to steal, kill, and destroy.

That's trauma.

Yeah.

And everything that's going
on in the world is like his

fingerprints on everything.

Mm-hmm.

And we just call it trauma.

Um, same thing with like CBT, right?

Cognitive behavioral therapy.

Yeah.

That's currently the gold standard.

It's been the gold standard
for quite some time now.

It's like the evidence-based research
backed most profound way to get people

to deal with whatever mental health
problem they're coming up mm-hmm.

Coming in with.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And it's
across the spectrum.

It's like individual therapy, couples
therapy, men's issues, women's issues,

addictions, whatever it might be.

Arun Koshy: And this is
without, uh, substances, right?

This is just purely like,
um, through conversations

and like dealing with issues.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

This is like talk therapy.

Talk therapy.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Like this is not medication.

CCB t is like strictly talk therapy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So it's like you come in and.

What, what the world calls ccbt.

Mm-hmm.

Like the Bible talks about like, you
know, coming around like again, CBT

is like cognitive behavioral therapy.

So there's this idea that your thoughts
and your behaviors are connected.

Mm-hmm.

And you can influence your behaviors
by your thoughts, but you can also

influence your thoughts by your behaviors.

Mm-hmm.

And then your emotions also play a part.

Mm-hmm.

And that not any one of those three
things, emotions, thoughts, or

behaviors have to be in control.

You actually can be kind of like the
puppet master outside of those three

things, and you can dictate what
you want to influence what, cool.

So I feel anxious, but I'm going to tell
myself that I'm making the commitment to

do this thing even though I feel anxious.

Mm-hmm.

And you actually, when you do scary
things, your brain is conditioned to

be like, oh, well it wasn't that scary.

Yeah.

Like exposure therapy, which is
a ccbt type of therapy, right?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Is quite literally facing your fears.

Mm-hmm.

Because there's no other way.

You're going to not feel
an, you're not gonna feel.

Less anxious by avoiding the thing.

Mm-hmm.

If anything, it becomes more anxiety
provoking because you create this like

idea of around it, of like, oh, it's
gonna, you know, it becomes more scary.

It becomes whatever it is, but it's
like, no, like, lemme just face it.

Right.

Right.

And you know, and exposure therapy, it's
like you might start with a picture.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Some people might be scared
of like, let's say a spider.

You're not gonna bring in like a gigantic
tarantine and be like, here, hold.

You might be like, let's.

Like, look at a picture and let's
look at a picture from far away.

Mm-hmm.

And then let's bring it closer.

And then let's get a rubber spider.

Mm-hmm.

And like a toy spider, and let's
get one that's mechanical, where

you wind it up and it moves.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you just slowly
expose yourself to it.

Yeah.

And so when people say like,
oh, well I can't do that.

I get anxious.

It's like, no, that's
why you have to do it.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's how you tell your brain.

And what's really cool is like the,
the power of imagination is actually

extremely powerful because research is
showing that when you imagine yourself

doing something that's even anxiety
provoking, your brain doesn't know

the difference between you phys, like
actually doing it and your imagination.

So when you're imagining, for
example, public speaking, wow.

Your brain is wiring that
experience as if you're doing it.

Whoa.

Cool.

So then you're kind of like just
training your brain to be like, oh,

like well, you've done public speaking.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you keep thinking about like,
well, I'm gonna practice public speaking.

I'm gonna do it in my head.

Right.

And so, but what most
people end up doing is.

The inverse is mm-hmm.

They get so much anxiety around
stuff and they worry about stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So then everything
becomes an anxious moment.

Mm-hmm.

Because they're thinking about it, their
imagination's constantly over like, well,

if I do this, or what if that happens?

And Yeah.

What if, you know, somebody makes
fun of me, or whatever it might be.

Right, right, right.

And it's like, then everything becomes
an anxiety experience because that's

what you've conditioned your brain.

Mm-hmm.

And then your brain, you, you have
this moment where you're actually

presented with an opportunity
and your automatic default belief

is like, well, I can't do that.

It's anxiety provoking.

I'm starting to feel uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm starting to feel tense in my chest.

Yeah.

And then you avoid it.

Right.

Because you're, you're trying to survive.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

So, and that's why they talk
about the idea of like visualizing

where you want to be basically.

Right.

You want to see the end goal so
that you can achieve the end goal.

Yeah.

Right.

And so I guess, is that all under CBT?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you even

Alen Yaghoubi: think about it, I
mean, this might be a weird example,

but like you think about like, Jesus.

Being in the Garden of Gethsemane and
then like asking that the cup be passed.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Because he was experiencing
intense emotional distress.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

We could give it secular language,
but he was experiencing like extreme

emotional distress and his thoughts
were like, I don't wanna do this.

Mm-hmm.

Can this cup pass by me?

Like if there's a way to avoid
this, I'd love to avoid this.

Yeah.

And he was able to think ahead.

Mm-hmm.

He was able to imagine what
the future looks like once

he's experienced the cross.

He's endured the cross.

Yeah.

And that's what he says.

He's like, for the joy set before me.

Mm-hmm.

So he was able to see the future and
be like, even though I feel extremely

stressed and under pressure to the
point of bleeding, like sweating blood.

Mm-hmm.

And then thinking like, I, I don't
wanna do this, I don't wanna do this.

It's gonna be excruciating pain.

Yeah.

But I, I know that there's a benefit
that's come that comes from it.

So I'm going to do something, even
though I don't think about wanting

to do it, and I don't feel like doing
it, I'm still choosing to do it.

Mm-hmm.

Because the future outcome
is worth the sacrifice.

It's, it's that ccbt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, well, that's really cool.

And actually, if

Arun Koshy: you don't know, pastor
Allen actually does this really,

you gotta watch his last message.

But you have this idea of analyzing not
just people, but also, uh, the devil.

Yeah.

And Jesus himself in a way, you
know, to the best of our ability.

Yep.

But talk a little bit about that.

Yeah.

Because you've used your degree to
kind of study this as well, which

is probably the, one of the coolest
ways to analyze the Bible, I think.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

So like, I mean, I, even in my message
last week, right, I have to give

this preference, like this kind of
like prefix or disclaimer of like,

you know, the devil bad, Jesus good.

Mm-hmm.

But like, I find the way the devil
thinks extremely fascinating and it

is connected to the fact that I'm
very much into forensics, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The criminal mind.

Like, he's the father of all criminality.

Right, right, right.

So it's like, whenever there's a
verse about the devil, I'm always

like, what, what motivates him?

What gets him going?

Yeah.

What, like, he's the father of lies.

Well, like why?

Like, you know, like what
got him to do what he did?

So, yeah, I find it very,
very fascinating around like.

Why does the devil do what he does?

How does he do it?

Like even the passage around, like put
on the full armor of God so that you

could withstand the schemes of the enemy.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, it's a very different thing.

We're not withstanding the enemy.

Mm-hmm.

We're withstanding his schemes.

Mm.

And the schemes are all psychological.

Mm-hmm.

And intellectual.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's literally what
that word scheme means, like in

the original Hebrew language.

Mm-hmm.

It refers to like a psychological
slash intellectual like attack.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what we're trying to withstand.

So the armor of God is in our
mind to withstand what he's

attacking us in our mind.

Mm-hmm.

And so being able to like
put him on blast is like the

greatest, like, joy of my life.

Yeah.

It's like, like a little thing I have.

I'm like, I'm gonna put
you on blast so much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm gonna expose all your schemes.

So people are like, oh, that's the enemy.

That's the enemy.

Yeah.

Because again, not to like glorify
the enemy, but he's described as

being perfect when he was a Lucifer.

Mm-hmm.

And then in, and he's full of wisdom.

And then in the garden he's
described as a crafty serpent.

Right.

Well, crafty and wisdom are.

Along the same spectrum.

Right.

It's just perverted.

Mm-hmm.

Perversion wisdom is craftiness.

'cause you're using it for Right, true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For your own game.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And so he comes in sly and slick and gets
people to think what they, they think

and, and he presents a version of a truth.

Mm-hmm.

And that's why it's so
appealing and that's why you

don't question it right away.

He never comes as like the
big scary, evil villain.

Yeah.

He comes as a form of light.

Yeah.

That looks as closest to God as possible
to get people to just accept it.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

And

Alen Yaghoubi: that's what you
see happening time and time again.

The only person who was able to
withstand him was, um, Jesus.

And the only way he was able to
do it was by quoting the word.

Mm-hmm.

And quoting it accurately.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Because the devil came at
him with the word also.

Right.

But he took it and distorted it outta
context, but just a couple of degrees.

It wasn't like, you know, you
are not this, you are not that.

He is like, well, if you are, then
like, turn these rocks into bread.

Mm-hmm.

Like what's the big deal?

Mm-hmm.

And he's like, don't test your god.

Right, right.

Because like he.

So, but that's the only way you'll ever
know that something isn't really true.

Yeah.

Is if you expose the actual truth.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

I think this is a such a cool concept
because I think often, and even in

like the church space, it's often how
do I protect the people away from the

devil, not prepare them for who he is.

Yeah.

It's really like, how do you hide that?

Learn all about God, but don't
know anything about the devil.

Like just stay completely away.

But really that's what he wants.

He wants to work in this kind of place
of like, like stealth, where he can kind

of operate, like you said, just schemes.

Yep.

And you don't really, you think it's just
like, oh, if I see him I just run away.

But really it's like, what is
he really trying to do and then

operate in all the areas that.

It's just really this, the
day-to-day things we do that

he's trying to operate in.

Yeah.

And trying to pervert
the view that we have.

Yep.

And so I think it's really cool to
understand what is his actual goal.

Then you can understand, you know,
how is he perverting this thing that

I think I'm doing for good, or I
think that is just a normal thing.

Yeah.

Um, is this a common thing
that, you know, psychologists or

other faith-based psychologists
have kind of started studying?

Or is this like something that, you
know, you feel like it's like a new area?

Alen Yaghoubi: I think, I mean,
I don't know any other, yeah.

I mean, within my world,
just professionally, I don't

know a lot of believers.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Um, but I think I'm just
very fascinated by it because I think

it's like, it's the underlining thing of
like everything that we do as believers.

Yeah.

Like the devil's never
gonna get us the church.

Yeah.

To, to believe that God doesn't exist.

Like, that's so far of a lie that we're
like, we don't, we're not gonna buy that,

but he'll get us to believe different
versions of God that aren't reality.

I like

Arun Koshy: this.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And the way the
devil works, it's like, I've

been thinking about this a lot.

It's like, how do you silence a liar?

Right.

If he's the father.

Lies.

Mm-hmm.

Or like any liar, how
do you silence a liar?

There's only two ways you
can silence a liar is one, by

exposing the lie with the truth.

Mm-hmm.

And saying like, yeah, you're lying
to me, but here's, I have proof that,

that what you just said was a lie.

Yeah.

And that's the word of God.

But the other way you silence the liar
is by believing everything he says.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: A liar stops talking.

The second you've internalized
that message and you believed it.

Mm-hmm.

So we have a lot of believers
who think that they're being

attacked by the enemy, but they are
actually just running on autopilot.

Mm-hmm.

They're, they've already believed a lie.

The enemy doesn't need to attack you.

Mm-hmm.

You're already operating
out of a pretense of a lie.

Mm-hmm.

So why would I, he's already,
why would he keep lying?

Right.

Right.

You've already bought into it.

Mm-hmm.

And you've silenced him
just by believing his life.

Yeah.

And so that's why like, when,
when, you know, everyone's always

like, you know, our church is
huge on like, read your word.

Read your word.

Right.

Community, like these things are not like.

Little mantras were checking off
because they just sound good in a

church, it is the active, um, engagement
against the tactics of the enemy.

Mm-hmm.

It's in reading the
Bible, it's in community.

Yeah.

Community isn't just
hanging out with someone.

Community is, Hey, I see you're
thinking this way or you're behaving

this way and that's actually not
aligned with the word of God.

So I'm actually gonna call you out.

Yeah.

Lovingly, but I'll call you out.

Mm-hmm.

Because I want you to see that there's
this lie you've bought into mm-hmm.

That's community.

Yeah.

And so what I always tell people
too is like, be open to feedback.

Yeah.

Be open to like, when someone says like.

Hey, that seems like it's
not a hundred percent there.

Like, don't be so defensive.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's also a tactic of the enemy.

Yeah.

It's like getting the quote unquote
church hurt or getting def like

offense offended by something and
it's like it gives you an excuse to

pull away because you feel justified.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But all you did was just isolate
yourself and you just doubled down on

a lie that you already believe that
somebody was just trying to expose.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Actually on that idea of like
spiritual warfare essentially.

Yeah.

Um, how, how do you distinguish, like if
you're, somebody's out there dealing with,

you know, addiction, some mental problems
or something like that, where they're

like, okay, well, you know, what is it?

Do I go to therapy and I try and figure
it out and I go, you know, do CBT or is

it really, I need to like, get into the
word and like, it's really just spiritual

warfare and I need to deal with that?

Yeah.

Like where do you find
that kind of balance?

That's a great

Alen Yaghoubi: question.

Yeah.

Because I think a lot of people think
that you have to do one or the other.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I fully believe in like miracles
and I believe that the, like the Lord

comes in and breaks chains and sets
people free and I, I've literally have.

Her testimonies and they know people.

Mm-hmm.

Who were like addicted
and then they weren't.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And it was
just like an instant thing.

And I was like, that's amazing.

But the thing is this, like the Lord can
and does deliver people, but for some

people it's less about being set free
from your chains and more understanding

why do you like your chains so much?

'cause I think a lot of people,
that's the real issue, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because even I, I forget who, who
mentions it, but I think it's Paul

who says like, you are, you're enticed
back by your own desires and you

make yourself like a prisoner again.

Mm-hmm.

So like the Lord set you free, but
for some reason you keep looking back.

I mean, it's the same concept
with Israel and Egypt, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's like they were delivered out of
Egypt, but they still wanted to go

back to Egypt every time life got hard.

Mm-hmm.

And that becomes, I think, the.

The marriage of the two.

It's like, get in church, um,
accept Jesus as your savior.

Have him come in and break
things and expose things, but

you're not gonna do it alone.

And for a lot of people, community and
having one good friend is like more than

enough to get you through a lot of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

But for some people, they might feel
like they can't talk to someone.

They don't feel, because there's
so much shame around this.

They feel embarrassed to
even bring it up to people.

Yeah.

Or they might just feel like there's
no one that they can talk to.

It's like, by all means go to a therapist.

Mm-hmm.

Like, have those conversations.

But kinda like what Pastor
Adam said, like, I don't agree.

You should be in therapy for like years
and years and years and years and years.

'cause like, you would never do
that in any other medical context.

Mm-hmm.

You would never keep just
going to a doctor mm-hmm.

Every single week for an issue
that was already resolved.

Mm-hmm.

That would be weird.

That would actually be like malpractice.

Mm-hmm.

Like it would be like very like.

Unhealthy to do that.

And so for a lot of people, and I've
actually had clients where I've had

to be like, I think we've reached
like the end of our time together.

And they're like, no.

I'm like, I think you're
paying me to be your friend.

Mm-hmm.

And it's kind of like this moment
of like, where are your friends?

Mm-hmm.

Because like, you don't need, you
don't need to get on a call with

me to tell me about your week.

Like we're friends.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I'm here to very specifically help
you with some breakthrough, give you

some insight, give you some feedback,
uh, help you process things through

like some established things at work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like, if you're just saying
like, yeah, so today was a good

week and, you know, I did this.

And I, I'm like, I don't, I don't need
to hear about what you had for lunch.

Yeah.

Like, that's not, you're wasting
your time, you're wasting your money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Arun Koshy: And

Alen Yaghoubi: you're wasting my time.

Arun Koshy: You feel like it becomes a
crutch for some people because when you're

going to a therapist, it's almost like.

I'm not confessing, but I'm
telling you all these things and

I need some course correction.

It kind of goes to what you were saying
about like the prison system almost, where

it's like, I don't, I can't set my own
boundaries, so I need to tell somebody

so that somebody sets boundaries for me.

Yeah.

Is that what it ends up becoming?

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Some

Alen Yaghoubi: people, they just
need a good friend to listen to.

I mean, we already know what
the most effective thing in

therapy, like talk therapy.

Mm-hmm.

The number one most effective thing
in making therapy work mm-hmm.

Is what we refer to as rapport.

It's the relationship between
the therapist and the client.

Yeah.

That's literally just like having
a good relationship with someone.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And like I've heard so many professionals
say this, they're like a good friend who

has the ability to really hear your heart.

Yeah.

Is the equivalent of
like a therapist for you.

Oh, because they're Good point.

And you, and it's in the
book of Proverbs, right?

Yeah.

It's like a, like a, I forget
it specifically, but it's like a

wise man draws out the deep things
of like another man or whatever.

Mm.

And it's like, yeah, you could
actually sit down with someone and

just like have a heart to heart.

Yeah.

But the thing is most people avoid
that type of like connection.

Because they feel like
they won't be accepted.

Yeah.

They're gonna be judged.

And it's so much easier to go to a
stranger that you're gonna pay see once

a week, just, you know, dump a bunch
of stuff on them and be like, affirmed.

'cause that's typically how
some of the therapy works.

It's like, well I'm so sorry you went
through this as opposed to like, no.

Like you actually need
to get your act together.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Um, and so people just feel
good about themselves and then they leave.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Actually let's talk about it because
something that you often talk about

with like a group of like boys that get
together, like if you have a strong friend

group, you always like, if you have, you
need boy time because you need that time

to just be able to talk about these things
and have somebody, and it kind of goes to

what you were saying about you have this
such a good relationship with them that

you can kind of just talk about anything.

And in a group like that, it just
feels like there's never any judgment.

It's like, yeah, you say whatever it is
and people call you out in a nice, like in

a way that's like, I don't have to take.

Offense to it.

It's like, oh yeah, I, I
trust you so I can hear it.

Um, what does make for like a
good friend in that way then?

Like, would you say, 'cause it's
not just a good friend, right?

You can kind of find it, you know,
in your marriage, in your, your,

your kids and your, you know, your
parents, whatever it might be.

But like, what are those
key characteristics that

makes for a good friend?

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

I think honestly the best example is
just like how you see Jesus dealing with

people who are like, from a societal
standpoint, like the outcast and like

the ones that were like the most shamed.

Um, like the woman caught an adultery,
like the, like you see how this,

like how her society treated her.

Like they brought her to him
through her in the middle.

Mm-hmm.

Try to shame her publicly.

We should like stone her like
all judgment, all um, lack of

empathy, lack of understanding.

Don't care what her issues are.

Mm.

Just, you did this external behavior,
so we're gonna make you pay.

And Jesus' response is, okay,
well the first person who is

perfect, you cast it for stone.

Let's, let's go, let's take rounds.

Because he is the only one qualified
to actually cast the stone.

Mm-hmm.

Because he's the only
one that was perfect.

Right?

Yeah.

And so it's that, it's like
that understanding of like.

Yes.

You're not perfect.

Yes, you've sinned.

Yes, you've messed up, but I'm
actually not here to judge you.

I'm here to help set you free.

Mm-hmm.

By helping you processes out.

So like not being judgmental.

Yeah.

Like that's profound.

Yeah.

And it's like people who get caught
up in their judgmental thing, it's

like you forget where you came from.

Right.

It like, you have your own baggage.

Would

Arun Koshy: you say ju being
judgmental is just all projection then?

Or is it not purely projection
it like on your own insecurities?

I guess

Alen Yaghoubi: I, it could be that
for sure, but I think also people

have maybe like a standard for people.

Mm-hmm.

Like I, you know, when you, when
you talk about like a lot of church

leaders who like fail, they have
like quote unquote moral failure.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I think a lot of times people are so like.

Shaken by that, or like
it affects their faith.

It's like, oh, well you weren't
perfect, so I'm not doubting God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a weird connection, but I
could, I could appreciate it.

Yeah.

Because it's like, well,
you put him on a pedestal.

Arun Koshy: Right?

Right.

He became a

Alen Yaghoubi: savior to you in some way.

And I feel like sometimes
judgment is that.

It's like you

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

You struggle with this.

Interesting.

Alen Yaghoubi: And it's
like, I was never perfect.

You just saw me as that.

Mm-hmm.

And the more people do that,
that's why, like, I actually don't

like language when parents tell
their children they're perfect.

Mm-hmm.

Like, oh, you're my
perfect little whatever.

It's like, right, right.

Well, first of all,
they're not, that's a lie.

But second of all, like,
what is the standard?

Like, are we act like, do they
always have to like then meet

that level of like, performance?

Right.

And so I, I, I tell my kids,
I'm like, you're not perfect.

Mm.

But I love you despite that.

Right.

Like, you are not perfect.

And I love, my love doesn't even waver
a little bit because you're not perfect.

Mm.

I love you equally.

Whether you were or you weren't.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like understanding
like, I don't need to be perfect.

I can make mistakes.

Mm-hmm.

I can mess up, I can whatever.

And like my kids are very comfortable
and like, I'm sorry I did this.

I'm sorry I did that.

Yeah.

And it's like, thank you for apologizing.

And then when there needs to be a
consequence, but most of the time

when they come to me, like when
they confess, when they come to me

and they tell me what they've done,
I don't, there isn't a punishment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's just like you coming
to me and you owning it and you

apologizing and me forgiving you like
that, that's more profound than, well

now you get a 10 minute time out.

Yeah.

Like, what is that gonna do?

Arun Koshy: Can I ask then, how
do you set the right expectations?

Because you can't set
no expectations, right?

Because then there's no growth.

Right?

Right.

But how do you set the right expectations
without, you know, getting to that point

where you're like, oh, you didn't meet
my ex, like my unexplained expectations.

Yeah.

And now I have judgment.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

I think it's understanding that
people, like we have a standard we move

towards, but like we're not, we're never
gonna actually achieve that standard.

And I would argue that that's
actually true across any.

Any dynamic where you are
leading somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

So whether it's parenting, whether
it's church, whether it's business,

whatever you're doing, it's like we
obviously all have a standard, but we

all know that that standard is something
we're increasingly moving towards.

Yeah.

Okay.

And really, if you think about
it, you're never gonna achieve it.

Mm-hmm.

But you are, you can
get closer and closer.

And for me, for example, like if my kids.

Say something they shouldn't say
if they say a bad word or whatever.

It's not like you are not allowed
to ever speak those languages

or those words ever again.

And if you do, it's the end.

It's like, Hey, you know better
than to use words like that.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

And

Alen Yaghoubi: I'll literally, I'll take
'em to like, especially my son, he's

older, so like he's more able to like
read and appreciate like biblical passage.

Mm-hmm.

But I'll take 'em to like a passage
that says like, no one wholesome

talks should come outta your mouth.

But then I don't just like, make
it a law, because anything that's

law, you don't internalize that.

I always try to connect it to the heart
of the father, like, well, why does

God not want us to use vulgar language?

Like, what does that actually connect to?

Yeah.

And it's like, well, people don't
feel like they can come to you if

you're like, vulgar and judgmental
and like crass and like mm-hmm.

Like, because you will, those people
end up having all these other issues.

And Proverbs talks about it, like,
stay away from a, like a, a angry

man or a person who can't have
like self-control or a person who

has no rain over their tongue.

Why?

Because they bring, they invite hostility.

They, they invite problems.

They invite this.

So it's like connecting it to that.

Hey, listen, like in, and
I'll explain it to my kids.

I'm like, there are you
guys mess up in this house.

Mm-hmm.

And we have so much grace for you
guys 'cause it's our job to teach you.

Mm-hmm.

But the world is not going to
be accommodating to you as much

as your mom and dad will be.

Mm-hmm.

And you're young, so
the world is forgiving.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, oh, they're a little kid.

They're learning.

But the older you get, the
less this world is gonna care.

And they're gonna eventually get to
a point of like, they don't care why

you did what you did, they're just
gonna wanna hold you accountable.

Yeah.

And so that's the dynamic I use of
like, I have expectations for you, but I

understand that those expectations will
not be met a hundred percent of the time.

Yeah.

But in the moments where they're not
met, can I, how I respond is more

important than what they just did.

Mm-hmm.

Because I could come down with power, I
could come down with authority, I could

come down with shame, with guilt, with
regret, with like severe consequences.

I believe in consequences.

But if it's so disproportionately
out of alignment from like what

happened, it actually, nobody cares
about what that person did anymore.

Like that person won't.

Think about what they did, they'll
just think about how extreme you were.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So then it's like, what was
the point of the consequence?

Yeah.

Just to make you feel better, because
that's what really what ends up

happening with a lot of people.

Right?

Yeah.

So I think it's just that, I think it's
like you have the standards and you remind

people and you hold people accountable,
but I think we're afraid of that word.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we think like holding
someone accountable is like, I'm

going to blast you and you're
going, it's gonna be painful.

It could be painful sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

Growing and learning and
adjusting and evolving and all

that stuff could be painful.

But when it's all for like the
good of you and it's then, and you

could show that to someone like.

I know like you don't want this timeout,
but I really think like if you sit and

understand like you can't do this and
I want you to have this consequence so

you can connect it to this behavior.

Mm-hmm.

So that next time if that opportunity
ever comes up, you don't do it.

Yeah.

That's why I'm giving you this timeout.

Mm-hmm.

It's not to make me feel better because
I feel like you should be on timeout.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

So

Alen Yaghoubi: I think that's where it is.

Yeah.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

I actually really like that di that
dynamic of how you go about that.

'cause now I'm starting to think that
the other way, which is this is the

way it is and this is how you have
to do it may just be out of laziness.

Maybe because really the way
that you're talking about is

it takes a little bit longer.

'cause you have to then empathize
with the person in front of you.

Yeah.

And why they did the thing they did and
then now let's figure out, you know,

can you understand it the way I do?

Mm-hmm.

And then it's now being vulnerable a
little bit about how you think of the

world and so that they can see it.

Yeah.

The other way is just, I don't
want you to see any side of how

I think this is the way it is.

Yeah.

And then you gotta go about it
and maybe that's where, you know,

kind of power can kind of corrupt.

Where it's like you don't really
take the time to learn about

the person on the other side.

It's just.

This is the way I see it and now
this is the way it has to be.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

And I think from like a, like
a macro to a micro, right?

Like I can appreciate like, like
CEOs or business like owners or

whatever, where they're thinking from
a macro perspective of like culture.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Like we need to protect culture,
we need to correct culture.

And culture is like these, it's literally
the same kind of thing that you're doing

when you're like trying to correct someone
on an individual level, that you're

doing it on a macro so everyone can see.

Mm-hmm.

Like, hey, we actually don't do
that in this company 'cause it

doesn't align with our values.

Yeah.

So we are going to make
these adjustments now.

Real good mentorship or
real good like leaders.

We'll have a streamlined in place to where
like, you might be like the boss and the

CEO of something, but it's like, hey,
like this person over here, like, they

did this and we're gonna correct culture,
and we're gonna explain to everyone.

Like, that's actually not cool.

Mm-hmm.

But I really hope that the direct
supervisor can have a one-on-one

try to get to the bottom of
like, why did that happen?

Mm-hmm.

Like, can you unpack it?

What was the thing that caused
it to happen in the first place?

And oftentimes you see so much dysfunction
in organizations because people are

insecure, they feel like they need to
perform, so then they like cut each other.

Right.

They try to make each other
look bad so they can look good.

And then stuff like that.

If you, you should address it on a macro
level, on a, like the cultural level.

Mm-hmm.

But then it's like getting to the
heart of like, well, why do you feel

the need to be seen all the time?

Yeah.

Like, could you just do something
and not get any credit for it?

Like, is that something that happens?

That's why I appreciate like
what we do at our church.

Mm-hmm.

With like our, uh, kind of
discipleship model we have.

It's like every single member
is connected to a direct, like

pastoral care, kind of like.

So it's like, you should
never wonder who do I go to?

Or you should never be confused
if like your like direct pastoral

care team comes to you and says
like, Hey, like how are you doing?

Or Hey, I just saw that or
I heard this, are you okay?

Like, that should be like the most like
inviting thing of like, oh, I have people

who are actually checking in on me, right.

Care about me.

And like, or they see something
on me or they, they saw me

do this or saw me do that.

It's out of alignment from my character
or from like the word of God, and

they're actually holding me accountable.

People should appreciate that because
it's so, you know, everyone like sees

the world from their perspective,
which obviously that's like, that's

just how we navigate life, but like,
it's really, really awkward to be the

recipient of someone correcting you.

Yeah.

But it's equally awkward to be the
one who has to bring the correction.

Yeah.

Right?

Like it's both vulnerable,
it's both uncomfortable.

And it's like understanding, like if
that person actually went beyond their

discomfort to actually say something
to you about like, Hey, like I actually

see you acting out of alignment from
like you, what you should be doing

and or what the word of God says.

You know how much courage it took
for that person to say that to you.

Right.

And the fact that they did it,
despite that awkwardness means

that they really value you.

Mm-hmm.

And they really appreciate you.

The single most like indicator
that someone doesn't care about you

is like, they see you messing up
and they're kind like, whatever.

Don't say the guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like there's no standard,
there's no expectation.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I say that to my clients,
like, at the prison.

Yeah.

Like, they'll act a fool and
I'll be like, what are you doing?

They're like, oh, well you do this.

I'm like, yeah, I, I put the
standard on you because I expect

you to actually fulfill it.

Right.

I would never put the standard
on that person because I

know they can't fulfill it.

Yeah.

I'm like, so me actually expecting
more from you was a compliment.

Mm.

And like they've, they've never heard
that kind of language, so to them

it feels like it's just an attack.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But when you explain it like you actually
can do it, that's why I ask you to do it.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, you, you believe.

Something in me that I
don't even see in myself.

Mm.

And it's the craziest thing when
grown men who've, who are like, you

know, tattered all over their face.

Yeah.

Who are like super violent and
then they break down, break down

crying because you believe in them.

Right, right.

It's the weirdest thing I saw.

Haven't gotten used to it.

Yeah.

But it just shows like even
the toughest exterior has a

desire to be validated and seen.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just the nature of people.

We want to be validated.

Yeah.

If you're just coming at people with
like this harsh tone, you're not

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

You're not

Alen Yaghoubi: reaching

' Arun Koshy: em.

Actually curious then, 'cause there's
two sides of that kind of, like you

say, it takes two to tango, right?

Yeah.

There's one side which is delivering
the news and then there's the

other side that has to receive it.

Yep.

And I think the receiving side
is kind of often overlooked.

Like how do you advise somebody to
then properly be able to receive

that kind of feedback and criticism?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Without, 'cause like without
throwing it back, like, you

know, like why do you do this?

Like how do you do, I think the

Alen Yaghoubi: automatic response
for most of us is like defense.

Yeah.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

It's like,

Alen Yaghoubi: well, or Or justification.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I did it because of mm-hmm.

And I think if people just realize like.

It's okay.

Like for me, like my, like something
I always say, it's like your opinion

of me is none of my business.

Mm.

Like you could hate me.

You could love me.

Mm-hmm.

Either way, like that's, you're
entitled to your opinion.

Right.

And it comes down to more like identity.

Like the more and more you believe what
God thinks about you, then what you think

about you, the less you'll be personally
attacked when someone says something.

Mm.

Because then it's not like this attack.

It's like, I know I'm not perfect.

So like when my wife, or even when
my kids, that's the most humbling.

When your kids say it like,
dad, you blah, blah, blah.

I'm like,

it's like shock.

'cause like they see, I'm like, if
they could see it, like that's bad.

Yeah.

Right.

But like for me it's kind of like being
open to hearing what they experienced.

Mm.

One example, I used to do this
thing, I don't do it anymore

'cause it's like whatever.

But I used to do this thing where
I'd like text my best friends.

Mm-hmm.

I had like five and I would text 'em
in a group text like, Hey, three things

I want you guys to respond back to me.

Three things you, uh, like about
me and three things you wish

I would either stop, correct.

Uh, you know, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

Like things that are weaknesses.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like everyone would, all, you
know, most people will respond

to positives and be like, I don't
really see anything negative.

I'm like, you're lying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like vast majority of them, they're,
the number one thing that they all said

was, we love that you're nonjudgmental.

But then I had one friend re
respond and say, I feel like

you're a little judgmental.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, that's really interesting.

'cause like I have these for fronts
who are saying I'm non-judgmental.

Mm-hmm.

I like to think of
myself as non-judgmental.

I mean, I, from, for my line of work, I
just listen to people confess doing some

of the most extreme things in the world.

Right.

And I'm like, okay,
let's work through that.

Right, right.

So I'm like, I like to think that
that's something I don't have.

But instead of being defended of
like, well, you're wrong 'cause

everybody else says I'm non-judgmental.

My go-to question was, I wonder what I've
said or have done to make her think that.

Mm-hmm.

So just trying to understand.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think

Alen Yaghoubi: if people would
just try to understand where the

other person's coming from Yeah.

And not having an agenda of responding.

Yeah.

That would solve so many other problems.

And the number one killer of
any relationship, and this

is like rooted in evidence.

Any relationship, whether it's
in intimate, professional,

whatever is assumption.

Mm-hmm.

So many people think they know why the
person's saying what they're saying.

Yeah.

And they operate and they respond
from the assumption mm-hmm.

Of, well you're saying this and
they don't say it to the person.

Mm-hmm.

They just assume it.

Yeah.

And then they respond back.

And what's I, I don't know if you've heard
the term of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But it's this idea of like, oh,
they're, they're just jealous of me.

So then you react as if
they're jealous of you.

Mm-hmm.

And then they get offended.

Yeah.

Right?

'cause you're coming
at them with the tone.

Mm-hmm.

When they thought they didn't
come at you with the tone.

Right.

So then they respond with like this
aggression and you're like, see.

I knew it.

Mm-hmm.

I knew they were jealous of me.

Yeah.

And it just feeds into itself.

Mm-hmm.

So like the number one thing
is like, don't assume you

know the intention of people.

'cause there are even people
who are very cocky about it.

Of like, I'm like, I know that this
is why they said what they said.

It's like, did you ask them?

It's like, no.

I'm like, then you don't know.

Arun Koshy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because

Alen Yaghoubi: people ask me too,
they're like, can you like read people?

Can you read their nonverbals?

Can you like pick up when someone's lying?

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, I could read people's
nonverbals more than I care to.

I don't want to.

Right.

I'd rather not.

But like I pick up when people do
certain things or say certain things,

but I'll never know the why behind it.

I can never know the why behind
it unless I care enough to ask.

Yeah.

And if I don't care enough to
ask and I shouldn't be offended

by it in the first place.

If I'm not gonna put myself on the
line and be like, Hey, I noticed you.

Like roll your eyes when I said that.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Why did you roll your eyes?

I could take it as like, oh,
they disagree with what I'm

saying and they think I'm dumb.

Yeah.

But it could be like, oh, I just
remembered when I was a kid.

My mom said that to me and
it made me feel really bad.

So I'm just like kind of like, yeah.

Reacting.

Trying to like just look away.

'cause I actually was getting emotional.

Oh.

And I didn't want you to see that.

Arun Koshy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: It's like night
and day, day, what a different

Arun Koshy: dynamic, right?

Like yeah.

You took it on as offense to you, but it
was really them dealing with something.

Yeah.

Which is 90% of the time it's
just me dealing with my own thing.

Yeah.

Then me, you know?

Yep.

Attacking somebody else.

And I'll say

Alen Yaghoubi: the number one thing you
could do as a communicator, if you're the

one initiating feedback, the one thing you
could do before you even let the person

respond is say what you're gonna say.

Like, Hey, I've noticed this, this, this.

Even with like your spouse, with
your kids, whatever it might be.

Mm-hmm.

And then follow up with
before you respond.

What do you think I just said to you?

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Like allow them to
actually filter, communicate back

to you how they filtered your words.

Mm-hmm.

Because we all filter through
our own perceptions, our own

experiences, our own insecurities.

So perfect example.

It's like my wife and I'm
like the biggest clean freak.

Yeah.

And I remember once I walked, walked into
the house and the house was just a mess.

'cause we have two little kids.

Yeah.

And that's what happens in life.

And I, I just made a comment
under my breath of like, oh

man, the house is so dirty.

Yeah.

And my wife's response was,
well I've been working all day.

Mm-hmm.

Like, were you expecting it to be clean?

And I got so confused by that
because I wasn't even talking to her.

Right.

I was just making an observation.

Yeah.

I was.

And it was about to be one of those
things where like, I puffed up of

like, oh, are you coming at me because
I'm gonna come back at you now?

Arun Koshy: And I

Alen Yaghoubi: just stopped and I
was like, wait, what do you think?

I just said Uhhuh?

Because I, all I said was,
oh, the house is so dirty.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She is like, oh, well, you're
like, the house is so dirty.

I've been home all day.

Why haven't you cleaned it?

Right?

Like she added all
these things many, yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's like that's,
that's her experience.

Yeah.

Those words.

She filled it through her
experience, through her

insecurities, through her whatever.

Right.

And she, that's what
she was responding to.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, but that's not what I said.

She's like, but that is what you said.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, no, I was actually making
an observation because I am thinking

to myself like, oh, the house is dirty.

Like, I'm gonna clean it up now.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I'm tired, but I'm
gonna clean it up now.

I had no expectation.

And I remember when I said that to
her, I saw her like deflate, like.

Oh yeah.

And I was like, and I think she said it.

She's like, well, how about we just
have dinner and we clean it up together?

Mm.

I'm like, cool.

So now like that's my thing.

It's like I'll say something and if
I notice any, even if I don't notice

it, but especially if I notice some
kind of like weird look, a little

tense, a little like whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd be like, before you respond,
what do you think I just said to you?

Mm.

And it's actually shocking how often
it's not anything what I meant.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And it's
completely something.

And that's why you see so many people
arguing like, like couples, yeah.

They're arguing because they're
not talking about the same thing.

They're talking about two different
things, and they're frustrated

that they're not understanding.

It's like you're not talking
about the same thing.

Right.

That's why you're arguing.

Same thing happens in
Team dynamics, right?

Like in like a work setting.

It's like you think you're
communicating clearly, but you're

not because you actually didn't give
the person to repeat back to you.

Did you understand what I actually said?

Yeah.

And if not, it's like,
well, this is what I heard.

And it's like, oh no, I
actually didn't mean that.

Mm-hmm.

This is what I mean.

Yeah.

Can you actually repeat
back what what I said now?

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And I think that's actually
really been helpful and just that's

Arun Koshy: a, that's a really good
tip because I think when you're

in an argument, what you end up
seeing is you're actually just

thinking about your next argument.

You're really just thinking to
yourself, you hear nothing they say.

Yeah.

And everything they're saying is
really just you giving yourself time

to think about your next argument.

Yeah.

But if you do have that pro, 'cause
then you'll realize, oh, maybe I didn't

actually even hear what you were saying.

Man, all of these skills seems like such
a superpower in every facet of life.

Yeah.

And so like, and I, that's why I think
this conversation is really cool to

chat about, like psychology and just
understanding the human condition.

Because you can kind of take it,
we talked about marriage, we talked

about caring of kids, we talked about
business, but you know, it's like

everywhere, every facet of life.

But I want to just chat with, you
know, our audience is primarily of

like kingdom builders, entrepreneurs.

Um.

For, I access to Pastor Rex when he was
here, but do you believe everybody can

be a leader or everybody can be like an
entrepreneur and start their own thing?

Or are some people more
inclined to do one or the other?

Or is it just a matter of training
that can kinda get you there?

I,

Alen Yaghoubi: I believe
everyone has the capacity for it.

I think that certain people have
maybe natural skills and talents

and other people have to maybe
work it out a little bit more.

Mm-hmm.

But I think the vast majority of
people just rezo resort to the

mindset of, that's not for me.

Mm-hmm.

And it could be for several reasons.

For example, when you ask somebody like,
what do you want to be when you grow up?

Like what a, um, like I think Madea
talked about it this last Sunday.

It's like what kids answer
versus what adults answer.

Mm-hmm.

It's like fundamentally different
because kids don't think from the

place of, um, restriction mm-hmm.

Or impossibility.

Or possibility I should say.

Yeah.

But adults do we think of
everything that's like, I can't

do, so then whatever's left is
the things I'm gonna try to do.

Mm.

Right.

And I think that that's what it is.

I think people have the capacity
for it, but there are different,

and it's important to note,
like there are different like

psychological traits that Yeah.

Yeah.

Talk about that will either
allow you to do that or not.

Mm-hmm.

Like are you somebody
who's like motivated?

Like are you intrinsically motivated or
are you, are you extrinsically motivated?

Mm-hmm.

Like some people are like, you
know, I go to work 'cause I'm

passionate about what I do and I
love people and I wanna help people.

And other people are like,
I'm here for the paycheck.

Yeah.

Like, if I didn't have to work for
money, I would not be doing it.

Right.

Right.

And I don't think one is
wrong or one is right.

Mm-hmm.

Is just understanding what motivates you.

And for some people it's like,
well, I'm miserable at my job.

It's like, well, because you're
not doing the thing that you're

not motivated by what you're doing.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm not like, so fluffy and
aspirational, like, well, you know,

go and be a painter for the rest
of your life and like, be poor.

It's like, no, that's not reality either.

Mm-hmm.

Because you still have responsibilities
and things like that, but it's like,

how do you actually navigate and move
in the direction of, but I find like

most people don't believe they can.

Um, they don't, they're afraid
of the criticism that they will

get when they inevitably fail.

Mm-hmm.

I think the most successful people are
the people who just are like, understand

failure as part of the process.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's just like, I will fail.

It's the same thing
with addiction actually.

Um, it's, it's funny how there's a
similarity between failure and the

process of success and addiction
and the process of sobriety.

Mm-hmm.

Because in addiction you
are expected to relapse.

Mm.

It's part of the process.

Okay.

It's actually one of the steps.

It's like you will relapse inevitably.

Okay.

And it is a part of it, but
it's like with failure and with

relapse, it's the same thing.

It's how quickly you
are able to get back on.

Pursuing the thing you were pursuing.

Right.

That's the number one indicator of
whether or not you'll be successful

is how fast that gap is closed.

Mm.

Between failure and trying again.

Mm-hmm.

Because some people will fail
and then they internalize it.

The enemy, right?

Yeah.

You, you didn't just fail.

You are a failure.

Your identity.

So what?

Failure pursues endeavors
to be successful.

Mm-hmm.

I'm a failure.

Right.

Why would I That's, that's I logical for
someone who's a failure to pursue success.

Arun Koshy: Mm-hmm.

Right?

Alen Yaghoubi: And so
you just sit arrested.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And so then versus
the person who's like, oh, I failed.

This was an event.

Mm-hmm.

It's not me, but you know what?

Tomorrow I'm just gonna
get back up and try again.

The people who can close that gap
and make it as small as possible

are extremely more successful.

Mm-hmm.

The people who put the gap in
between of like, I failed and I'm

not gonna try, you end up actually
not being as successful because you.

Have internalized so much
of that language Yeah.

Of like, I can't do it.

I'm not good enough.

I've lost the momentum.

Because a lot of it too is momentum.

Like when you're in
something all the time.

Yeah.

It's almost like second nature to you.

So then it's almost like you're breathing
it, you're thinking it, it's like natural.

Yeah.

But when you give it some time
and you give it some space, um,

you can actually start losing it.

And then it's like, oh, just
getting things activated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it, the activation for most people
is the hardest part than the, like

the sustaining or maintaining Yeah.

Right.

Is it's like the start is always
hard, but once you get going, it's

almost like it starts to pick up.

Mm-hmm.

Its own speed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think it's that I think
people are not as motivated.

I think people have, uh,
insecurities or beliefs around

like, oh, I'm not a cutout for this.

Mm-hmm.

This isn't who I am.

I think people over identify
with their feelings.

Well, I feel anxious to public speak.

Mm-hmm.

So therefore I will not public speak.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, well feel
anxious and public speak.

Right.

Right.

You said you have to feel
comfortable doing the things you do.

Right.

Right.

Like, who made that role for you?

Yeah.

But again, a lot of people have
learned that, or they are taught that.

It's like, oh well.

For example, kids, um, they join a
sport, they join some kinda activity.

It's a little bit hard.

They have some resistance.

I wanna quit.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, well, just 'cause it's hard.

Doesn't mean you quit, it just means that
you figure out what your roadblock is.

But depending on how you are raised,
it's like, oh, that was hard.

You could, you wanna quit?

Okay.

That's cool.

Oh, that was hard.

You wanna quit.

Okay.

That's cool.

Maybe sometimes they
really don't enjoy it.

Yeah.

It's like, I, this isn't fun for me.

This is boring.

I tried it.

It's not my cup of tea.

Okay.

That's fair.

Mm-hmm.

You tried it, it wasn't for you, but
if it, because it was uncomfortable.

It was an anxiety provoking, it
was challenging, it was hard.

And you wanna quit.

Well, that's not, you're
not gonna be able to.

Mm-hmm.

Like, our son was in karate and he
got kicked in the face and actually

gave him like a little black eye.

Mm-hmm.

And he's like, I don't, I
don't wanna do it anymore.

I'm all like, oh no, you
just gotta get back in there.

I'm like, that's gonna heal.

Yeah.

He's like, but it hurt.

I'm all like, yeah, but it'll heal.

It'll heal.

Yeah.

Like, you'll be fine.

And it was like, it took a moment
and there was some anxiety around it.

But then he got to like do a little
bit more practice and then he got

more confident himself because
he knew how to block that kick.

And like now he's fully in it and
he's like, I wanna get my black belt.

Like, and now his mindset has changed.

Yeah.

Because he believes in himself.

So it's a lot of different
things, but like, that's why it's

so hard to get people unstuck.

Like you think about we are
the most educated, we have the

most access to information.

We have a bajillion, like we have so
many podcasts with so many people who

come on and do so many different things.

We have all these self-help books,
but, which is what, what's crazy

is we have more depression, more
anxiety, more suicide, suicidality,

um, more insecurity than ever before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We have all this wealth of knowledge,
but people are actually less confident.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And more insecure and more
doubtful of themselves.

Yeah.

And you wonder like what is causing that?

How, what is causing that inverse?

We have more knowledge on how to
be successful, but people are not

internalizing it because people
are believing, again, thought life.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: It's like
I, I have all this access.

To like, I would argue before we knew
better, like one reason why people

weren't successful is just because
they didn't know how to be successful.

Mm-hmm.

Like, how do you make
a successful business?

How do you make a successful team?

How do you make a successful whatever?

But I feel like we're in a place in the
world where like, we know how to do that.

Mm-hmm.

Like, there's literally tutorials of
like, how do you start a business?

How do you start a church?

How do you start on a prop?

Like it, they literally give a
break, like step by step instructions

and people still don't do it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And it's like, again, people have just
believed something about themselves.

So for me, yeah.

I just wanna, yeah,

Arun Koshy: like on that same topic
where this idea of, there's just so

much more depression now, and it, for
entrepreneurs out there, for people

that are, you know, see the other side
of it and they see a successful leader.

They think, oh, this is a
thing that I want to get.

I'm gonna chase this success.

But you actually find that when you
get there, it's not all, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Grass is greener on the other side.

Yeah.

There's a lot of depression.

There's a lot of.

Still, like I haven't reached that
point and I'm still chasing something.

Yep.

Where do you find that gap between
success and that idea of like, never

actually being able to attain it, and
then what causes this kind of depression?

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

I think people, the pursuit of
stuff is actually pretty healthy.

Like when we have a drive to pursue
something, I think once we obtain it,

that's where it becomes dangerous.

Mm-hmm.

Because we realize that all of
these different things aren't

going to fill, uh, a void that
we're all trying to like, pursue.

Yeah.

Um, and, and it goes back to like faith.

Like God is the only one who
can fill that de, that need

to feel seen and have purpose.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, like the book
of Ecclesiastics, right?

Solomon, the, the, if there was ever
a prototype of success, it'd be him.

He was the wealthiest, he had peace
in his, during his time, he had.

So much of like status to where people
from other parts of the world were

traveling just to hear him speak.

Mm.

Like that's talk about influence.

Like you have all these things and
he, at the end of it kind of like

comes to a conclusion of like,
none of that really mattered.

Mm-hmm.

And it seemed like the book of
Clastic, I think a lot of people see

that like, oh, Solomon is old age.

He's just like miserable and unhappy.

I actually completely
see the opposite of that.

When I read that book, I'm like,
oh, he actually has the most clarity

he's ever had because he's actually
coming from a place of like, I

obtained status, I obtained wealth, I
obtained quite literally 1000 wives.

Like I've obtained all these things
that from a societal standpoint, from

a world standpoint, it's like success.

Success.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You've checked it all off.

Mm-hmm.

And it was all for nothing.

Mm-hmm.

None of it mattered.

It all produced nothing.

It all came.

It all went.

We stressed for nothing.

We were anxious for nothing.

Mm-hmm.

We were depressed for nothing.

We worked hard for nothing.

And it seems like.

He's saying don't try.

What's the point of working?

What's the point of creating?

What's the point of
establishing or whatever.

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying anything that you do
work towards, make sure there's a

eternal or kingdom impact to it.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's the only thing that lasts.

Like what's the point of you working
so hard and accumulating all those

wealth only that you'll be buried
and then everyone else gets it.

Mm-hmm.

Once you're dead.

Yeah.

Like what's the point of that?

And it's like, yeah.

Then maybe we have this idea of
like legacy, but we all know too,

like when the next generation gets a
blessing that they weren't equipped

to handle, it just destroys them.

Mm-hmm.

And we've seen that time and again.

And so it's the same kind of this idea of
like, if you're not, if you're going to

build, build for something that actually
matters and anything can still be that.

It doesn't mean like everyone, you know,
quit your jobs and plug into a church.

Right.

It doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean
serving your church because there is an

internal kingdom impact Definitely there.

But your work can all be eternally.

Focused.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: If you
pursue it the right way.

Like my work, I work with
a bunch of criminals.

So like some people could say like,
well, how's that kingdom advancement?

It's like, if I could just get
one person to believe one less lie

about themselves, that's, that's
for me, that's kingdom advancement.

Mm-hmm.

Because I just came against
the enemy and we won.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I spoke a truth.

He believed the truth over the
lie that silenced the enemy.

Just one more degree.

Right?

It's like, yes, he might have all
these other stuff he's dealing

with, but at least that's one.

Mm-hmm.

And maybe we could build upon that.

Maybe that's a seed that the Lord will
use later on in his life somewhere else.

So it's like everything could be that
maybe you're a barista, maybe you are a

nanny, maybe you're a stay at home mom.

Like you can always have a eternal
kingdom impact with whatever you do.

And it could be like the most mundane
job, how you connect with people, how

you speak into people, how you carry
my wife is like the best example.

She works for Kaiser.

Mm-hmm.

Which is, you know, like not anything
related to like church or faith,

but the one thing that she's always
recognized for is like the joy she.

Um, brings to the meetings and people
literally say, and it's the funniest

thing 'cause they use secular language,
but they're like, whenever you're

on a call with us, it's like there's
this joy that comes into the meeting.

Mm-hmm.

Or there's like this light that comes
into the meeting and it's like Yeah.

'cause she's literally carrying
the spirit of like the lord.

Yeah.

And she's releasing joy 'cause
she's so genuinely like, excited

and happy and like understands like
her, like who she is and the Lord.

And she's just like,
comes from that place.

Mm-hmm.

And everyone's affected by it.

Yeah.

To the point where people will
reach out to her on the side and be

like, Hey, like, can I talk to you?

I'm going through something.

Mm-hmm.

And they'll be like, I don't
know what you believe, but you

know, I'm going through this.

And my wife will just be like,
yeah, let's, let's grab coffee or

let's get on a call really quick.

Yeah.

And it's like they see something and she
does nothing related to faith at her job.

Mm-hmm.

But people still pick up on something
and then she'll lean into that when

those moments present themselves.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: So I think that's
where that gap is, is people are

building towards something that
they think will make them, will

give them something that it doesn't.

I think that's also why
the Bible talks about like.

God and money.

Mm-hmm.

Like you could only serve God or money.

I think it's very interesting that
it's money and not anything else.

Mm-hmm.

Like it could have been so many other
things like God and lust, God and self.

Mm-hmm.

God and whatever, but it's money.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, what does money
actually produce for you?

Money will get you to
believe that you are a God.

Right.

If you get enough of it, you'll
start to think as if like, because

what does it mean to be like a God?

It means to be like self-sufficient
to rely on yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And that's really what happened.

Solomon, right?

Yeah.

He accrued a bunch of wealth, so
then he became his own provider.

Mm-hmm.

He gathered a bunch of horses, which
is like, do not like, it was a law

for the kings of Israel, like, do not
gather a bunch of horses because it

was, it was connected to military power.

Yeah.

Because like God was supposed to be
the one that always went before them

in war, but he accrued a bunch of
horses and like military weapons.

And it became his mindset of
like, well I have, well how much.

Military power I have.

So his focus shifted is like, I'm
not relying on God for provision.

I'm not relying on God for protection.

And then it was like, do not marry
a bunch of foreign wives because

they'll turn you away from me.

Which is exactly what happened.

Yeah.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

And it's

Alen Yaghoubi: like all these
things are there for a reason.

And it's that same thing of
like rules and standards.

It's like that gap happens because
when you start to accrue wealth,

you could very much start to lose.

It's so easy.

Mm.

And I think everyone has this
idea of like, man, God could

trust me with a billion dollars.

I see it so much.

Yeah.

I hear people talk about it, but then
when like about like, you know, I

see something like random video of
like someone being very generous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you go into the comments, it's
like, man, if only God, if only God

trusted me with the million dollars.

I'm like, everyone's convinced that
they would say exactly the same.

Right.

With a large amount of money.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But like.

We see people's tides go down
when they get a promotion.

Right.

Right.

Which you would think
would be the inverse.

Mm-hmm.

But people start paying less because
they're like, oh, I have more now.

Yeah, yeah.

You said you want to keep it.

Mm-hmm.

Because you think it
was about what you did.

Mm.

And it's the same thing.

So I think it's that that's the
gap that's missing is people are

finding, are pursuing purpose.

Mm-hmm.

In achievement and accolades and titles.

Arun Koshy: Okay.

Yeah.

But,

Alen Yaghoubi: but once they,
once they reach it mm-hmm.

It's like, oh, this is
actually not anything.

Arun Koshy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Could I, could I frame it this way?

And I don't know, yes, you, maybe you
can agree or not, but would you say

then that like your purpose being in the
world, even if you set some like lofty

goal, it's actually achievable 'cause
the things of the world are achievable.

Yeah.

But if you say your kingdom purpose
to to God and to the kingdom,

it can actually be unachievable.

And it's that pursuit of God never
being achieved on earth, which is.

Why it's better.

Like you're, you're always,
because they say the journey is

what makes you so happy, right?

Yeah.

It's not the actual destination.

Yep.

In a way, I, I don't know, I'm
trying to think through this, but

like, the destination obviously is,
you know, where we're trying to go.

Right.

But like, maybe it's that
pursuit of kingdom purpose that

allows us to never be depressed.

Yeah.

Because we're always chasing this thing
that we can't really achieve by ourselves.

And maybe that's, you know, part of it.

Alen Yaghoubi: Yeah.

Arun Koshy: No, a

Alen Yaghoubi: hundred percent.

Because at the end of the day, like
let's say you achieve success in whatever

thing you are creating or service
you're providing or whatever it is.

Yeah.

Whatever success is to you,
like you've achieved it.

So like now what?

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

What do you, what does that do for you?

Are you just now, because again, I think
we are people who are very easily bored

and we grow accustomed to our new normal.

Mm-hmm.

Very quickly.

Yeah.

So if I go from being a
thousandaire to a millionaire.

That high will last for a while, but then
being a millionaire will be my new norm.

Yeah.

It was like, well, this is not
my new life and this is not

my new society and community.

Right.

And this is now what I have access
to, and we adjust very quickly.

Mm-hmm.

And if people who don't have the capacity
to navigate those things well mm-hmm.

Then they, they start
to forget who they are.

And that's the other thing, a lot of
people are striving for success and

they're not moving from a place of like,
God's already called me to do something.

Like they're trying to achieve
what God's already accomplished.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And so when they reach that thing, they
are like, wait, I don't feel fulfilled.

It's like, no, because you are striving
for value and worth in those things.

Yeah.

And those things can't,
they literally can't.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it literally is the origin story of
like Adam Neve, they were pursuing mm-hmm.

An external thing in the world.

Right.

The fruit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they thought that
would make them like a god.

Mm-hmm.

And the response was,
oh, we actually lost.

Sight of what actually mattered.

Mm-hmm.

And we're actually gonna go
hide now 'cause we're ashamed.

Mm-hmm.

And it's kind of like, it's almost
like that, it's like you are pursuing

these external apples on trees.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Because it means you'll be like a God.

Mm-hmm.

And it means something.

And it's like, yes, you, you might
get money, you might get stuff.

And that none of that stuff is bad.

Right.

It's not bad.

But if that stuff becomes your God mm-hmm.

If that's the thing that you were
hoping was gonna give you value,

you're gonna be grossly disappointed.

Yeah.

And I would argue that most, if not all
of Hollywood is the great like theological

and psychological experiment mm-hmm.

Of like super successful people.

A lot of fame, a lot of wealth, a lot
of access to a lot of different stuff.

And you have the highest depression
rates, suicide rates in Hollywood Yeah.

Than you do anywhere else.

Mm-hmm.

You have people like, like
Robin Williams, like Right.

There's just Whitney Houston,
Michael Jack, like all these

super, super successful people.

Yeah.

And they end up like.

Taking their own lives
or numbing themselves.

And it's like, if that's
not enough mm-hmm.

Then to like show you that that
doesn't do anything for people.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: Then, you know, and then
now, like in today's society, I've heard

like I'd rather cry in my like Bugatti
than in my like Camry or something.

Like if I'm even miserable,
I'd rather have everybody.

And it's like, it's like I could
appreciate the sentiment behind

that, like what they mean.

Yeah.

But at the same time it's like you just
believe that you still have to cry.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Right.

Like you

Alen Yaghoubi: don't, you don't
realize that there's actually a hope.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: In either situation.

Mm-hmm.

You could be in your
Bugatti and have hope.

Yeah.

But like, why do you think
that that's your only option?

Right.

Right.

And it's like, that's the mindset
we're working against, but

that's the mindset of the world.

Yeah.

And we sound to the world
and this is biblical right.

To the world.

Like this conversation, if the
world's watching it is gonna

be like, they're so illogical.

Mm-hmm.

Like they think we have a problem.

Right.

'cause we're like not about.

The, we're, we're about pursuit of
excellence, but it's not for the

sole purpose of gaining things.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's actually to be resourced, to
be able to impact the world mm-hmm.

In a way that allows the
kingdom to infiltrate.

Yeah.

Like, that's our heart.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, that's a great pursuit,
but it's all about how you do it.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

Alen Yaghoubi: And like, you
don't always have to be like

overly churchy about things.

Like you'll have to fact check this.

But my understanding is like
Colgate, like the toothpaste

company is like a Christian company.

Oh, okay.

Or like in and out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In, yeah.

They're not sitting there like, you
know, holding devotional every day

Arun Koshy: before you order.

Yeah.

Before you order.

Alen Yaghoubi: But the way they
operate their business mm-hmm.

The way they engage with
their, um, employees.

Yeah.

The way they connect with customers,
even the way they pay their customers,

they pay, they have some of the highest
paying like hour rate positions,

like even in like California.

It's like the way they honor and the way
they like go about doing certain things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is advancing kingdom stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And they're not overly like
screaming Jesus all day at you.

Yeah.

And you don't have to.

Um, if you want to, you can, but
that's not, that's not a requirement.

Right.

You could do things that are
kingdom oriented very subtly, um,

and infiltrate people's hearts.

Yeah.

With that approach.

Arun Koshy: Yeah.

I, I think we could keep going
forever, which is unfortunate that I

have to put an end to this podcast.

No, I get it.

But I just wanna put this out there.

You mentioned to me before this that
you were thinking about doing a podcast,

and I was, oh, I really genuinely
mean this, that you should a hundred

percent start a podcast, because I
think this is a wealth of knowledge

that you have and your ability to kind
of speak on it from a faith background.

Yeah.

I think it's so important and so well
done, because this isn't just a skill

that, you know, you can take on and
it doesn't take work, but it's like

you, it's like repetition, right?

Like you gotta keep doing
and using these skills.

Yeah.

'cause even for you, it's like you
were talking about these, you know.

Like times in your marriage, you
would think that you have a superpower

where it's like, you know, you've
done it once and you never have to.

It's constant, right?

Like it's, yeah,

Alen Yaghoubi: it's almost worse.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Arun Koshy: So I mean, like, if,
if it is any sign for you to start

your own podcast, please do it.

Um, I know I have a list of questions
I wanted to ask you and so we'll

definitely have you back on.

I know that'd cool.

Pastor Adam would be cool to
do it with all three of us.

We, yeah, that back on.

That'll fun.

It'll be really fun.

Um, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Thank, thank you.

And if this is your first time
listening, please share this podcast.

I think this one will
help a lot of people.

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stay tuned for the next episode.

Cheers guys.