Founder Mode
Arun: What's up innovators
and kingdom builders.
You're listening to the Hype
Pod, real conversations on tech,
innovation, and culture trends.
Welcome to episode 38.
Look at that.
I'm like a new man.
Who are
Arun: you?
I don't know if this is your
first time listening though.
Yes.
And you don't know it.
We believe here at Hype
Network, you're one connection
away from your breakthrough.
You need to join Hype membership.
For sure.
Can you tell the people
about Hype membership?
Ps Adam: I can tell about Hype membership.
Hype membership is your,
your, I would say your hack.
To furthering inspiration, innovation, and
development of your company, your business
through an integration of relationships.
This is the idea of hype membership
is how do I get an investment into
my world by exposure to a wider
network, people at different levels.
I would say people at different stages
of, of building a company, but yet I get
to have a, not just a mentoring, but I
get to have relationship conversation.
And, uh, you know, you go through life
at the speed of your relationships.
And so I think that's what hype
membership is at its, at its core.
It's membership mentorship, but it's
also connection through relationship.
And, uh, yeah, it's valuable.
Arun: Yeah.
And if you like the content here on hype
podcast, we have a lot of unreleased
content that's only available to people.
Ps Adam: That's right.
With hype membership.
That's right.
Arun: If that interests
you, feel free to sign up.
And then also follow us at
hype network on our socials.
We're releasing a lot of
content there as well.
We
are.
Arun: Um, and just on that topic of
connections, we're actually going
to be chatting about founder mode.
I don't know if you've been
following this on Twitter.
I haven't.
Okay, great.
We're going to talk about that.
But before we get into that.
Yes.
You just got back from Vi for Frankfurt.
Yes.
What a launch.
If you were not following pastor Adam
on Instagram, you got to follow it.
It looked like, I thought, I was
like, are we opening our own church?
Or did you just go visit
a mega church there?
I really look like an established, like
the amount of people tell us about it.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
I mean, it was amazing.
A couple of the vast me had did
it, did it exceed my expectations?
I think in some aspects, yes.
The reality of seeing a thousand and 46
people at a launch was like, even, I mean,
in the U S that would be a massive launch.
Uh, but to do that in Germany, to
do that in Europe, a megachurch
in Europe is 300 people.
So on a launch site, it'd
have over a thousand people.
Yet at the same time when, uh,
Pastor Henoch, Pastor Davide and
I were really planning Frankfurt,
we, we kind of figured, Hey, if we
do this really well with all our
knowledge and what we've learned over
launching, you know, 10 locations.
There's no reason why we can't have
a thousand people at the launch.
And so that kind of just set the
trajectory on how we built where we
should have worship nights and how
many team we should have by this stage.
And really, I think it, it kind of
met the expectation because we set the
expectation at a thousand, but it was
certainly amazing to see it come together.
We had two services.
We booked the biggest theater
we could 500 seat and, uh,
we maxed them out both times.
And it was, it was special.
It was amazing.
It was chaos.
It was absolute chaos.
I mean, what you don't see on,
uh, on the, on the Instagram
photos and stuff like that.
I mean, what you see is just a.
What you don't see is that at
night, uh, they didn't let, we're
in a, we're in a theater, but they
wouldn't let us use the projector.
So we ran no projection.
No, no.
For all of it?
Yes.
Like, just, we had the curtains closed.
But, um, I think people thought
we were just super cool.
You know, that we don't, we
didn't need a projection.
It was all part of the plan, right?
Exactly.
Uh, but, uh, We also got a media
write up, uh, you know, in this
paper that is generally, uh,
kind of critical of the church.
But this write up that we got
was entirely positive, which
has never been seen before.
Uh, this is viewed over, I think half a
million, uh, evangelicals and different
people of the church around Germany.
And, uh, you know, it's
just been, it's amazing.
It's been great.
Did marvelously and as I was saying
before what you don't see on the posts
is the chaos You know of a team doing
that scale of church for the first
time right and I think at one point
The team just completely forgot to
hand out offering buckets, you know,
and and And things like that, it was
chaos, uh, but God was glorified and,
uh, they're, they're building now.
Yeah.
And I think
Arun: the best way to do it is to
get thrown in the fire early, right?
Like if you're a team building, like you
want it to be that way the first time
and you're gonna learn, learn that way.
Look,
Ps Adam: I prepared them.
I prepared the team.
Well, I said, Hey team, guess what today?
Well, I said, tomorrow expect
to be exhausted, expect to
be physically exhausted.
Like you just ran a marathon.
And the reason I say that is because.
We're going to win today, but
we're still going to be tired.
Like if you go into battle, both boxes
fight and both are tired, but one wins.
The one who wins is just as tired,
but they're energized from the win.
And I said, that's the attitude
when you're building the church.
Do not be confused if you're exhausted.
This is battle, but we win.
And so that was a really good framework
for them to, you know, even take the
day off and half of them, half of the
team slept all day, but, uh, you know.
Arun: Do they have the, some
of the team from Mountain View
go to kind of give them some, a
Ps Adam: couple, we had a couple
of the, uh, worship team go, uh, so
we had, um, Paola, uh, and Noble go
out, which is a gift to any launch.
And I was going to
Arun: say, you need that team that's done
it before to kind of give you some, like,
I don't know if Confidence I think going
into this like, Oh, you know, I mean, we
Ps Adam: stacked it.
We stacked it with power and
noble from mountain view.
We had a couple of the team from our
Italy campuses who went out there.
And, um, you know, we just
had a bunch of London.
We had kingdom builders
come from other locations.
It was a real family affair.
It was amazing to see the
buy in from around the globe.
On a celebrating the launch.
And, uh, so we had a thousand,
over a thousand people at
launch, which was amazing.
Then, uh, this last Sunday we went down
to our regular room, which is 300 people.
And we maxed that out,
which is really healthy.
So now we're thinking about how do we
either, you know, double up services
or what, but I think that that is
the, uh, that's healthy to, to now
start building with around 300 people.
Arun: That's amazing.
God's good.
Yes.
Incredible.
All right.
And before we go into that,
we have one more topic because
we haven't chatted about it.
The debate.
Oh, yes.
What did you think?
Actually, what was your expectations
going in with Kamala versus Trump?
And then what did you think after?
We don't have to get into like
the issues or anything, but just.
How the debate went for you.
Ps Adam: Look, I'll be honest with you.
I think Trump had everything to lose
and Kamala had everything to win.
Um, and I think all she had to do was
come out and be coherent and she was
already going to be way better than
what's previously been presented.
And I think she did that.
I think she honestly won the debate.
Uh, I think, uh, Donald, uh,
Trump didn't do anything different
to what he's done in the past.
Actually, I think, let me take the back.
I think he was more well
behaved than he'd ever been.
Arun: Oh, really?
I took away at least compared to
maybe he wasn't put in threat with
Biden or the previous debate, right?
But like he got more frazzled
than I thought I would
expected him to get frazzled.
Sure Yeah, but it also it was unfair.
He was on the panel.
It felt like a 3b.
Yeah I don't know if
Ps Adam: I didn't see frazzled.
I honestly didn't see that.
I think I saw measured It
definitely felt outnumbered.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I think everyone, even
Democrats would have been tough.
Um, even the way they directed questions
was so, I don't know, it was just kind
of offensive, but, um, I think that set
Campbell up just to be a little bit, she
was the, she played the Donald Trump card.
She talked over the top.
She did the slight comments in
the background, uh, which forced
him to play her own game back
that she's played in the past.
Look, I think it was a bit of a mess.
I think.
What I don't agree with, I think
Donald Trump should do another debate.
I think they should do more.
Um, but maybe with a Fox.
Arun: Yeah, that's totally fair.
It really is totally fair.
I mean, it'd be nice to have some neutral
area, but I don't even know if that
exists, but yeah, it doesn't exist.
Ps Adam: No, I don't think it was a win
for the Trump campaign, but also I think
just letting Kamala be really Kamala
right now, if it, if it did anything, if
it gave her the confidence to start being
herself and speaking outside of a script,
right.
Ps Adam: That's the best thing
for the Republican party.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because every time she
does that, it's terrible.
Arun: Mm hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
She is, she is the
definition of a politician.
They give her the answers, give
her, you know, exactly what
to say, and she says it well.
Yeah, and she's, she was a
Ps Adam: defense attorney.
Arun: Yeah, exactly.
So,
Ps Adam: if you give her a closing
argument, she can deliver that line.
Uh, and I think it was very scripted.
Have you seen the things where
they said, she's one of those
earrings, the hippie's earrings?
Yeah, yeah, I saw that.
Yeah, I saw that, yeah.
Um That shouldn't be allowed.
Arun: Yeah.
I think, I think, I
think that was debunked.
But yes, it was.
Yeah.
That's at least.
Are you sure?
Yeah.
On Twitter.
You know, you see both sides, but yeah.
But if anybody doesn't know, there
was a picture of, I think they
have microphone, uh, earrings.
They're a specific earring.
That's a microphone earring.
And I mean, they looked exactly
like the ones that were released.
So if you go on Twitter and you want to
look it up, it looks exactly right, but
then there is another brand that's there.
And so, you know, I feel
like they wanted to do it.
They would do it where you
couldn't see it at all.
I mean, they have a lot of.
I think that's the
Ps Adam: best way to do it
without seeing it at all.
It's just the
Arun: earrings.
Yeah.
But I mean, you could just create
one that doesn't look like the
public selling one, you know, but
maybe they're didn't have time.
They just switched, you know, candidates.
They don't have
Ps Adam: time to go in the war
room and start getting technical.
Come on.
Arun: But yeah, I was curious.
I thought it was a, it was an interesting
debate, but I do hope they do more.
I think the one question I had for you,
it's like, do you think it's to Trump's
detriment that he's such a gunslinger
that he was willing to take that debate
on those grounds, on those terms?
He could have just.
He could have just said, you know,
we're going to only do it on Fox.
We're only going to do it,
you know, under my terms.
But
yeah,
Arun: he's just such a non politician
where he's like, I'm just going to.
Just go and speak.
Ps Adam: Yeah, maybe, maybe I just
think that they underestimated
her ability to speak.
I think they underestimate, cause they've
only seen Cackle and Camelot up until now,
like literally, like all you've ever seen
of her is very ambiguous mumbo jumbo, like
every time she's, you know, it's the same
sentence that she's repeated everywhere,
uh, what was, what will be, you know,
whatever, you know, it's like very
philosophically weird about pineapples
falling from a tree and stuff like that.
So I think they went and going, Oh,
this is what we're going to get.
I think it took them by surprise
that she could be coherent
like a normal human being.
I don't think we're, we're
even got a high bar right now.
It's so sad.
Like, I mean, you think of half of the
people who you work with are actually way
more coherent in a conversation than both
candidates right now, even Donald Trump.
I
Ps Adam: don't even think Donald Trump is
the most coherent representation of, of
what a leader looks like in our country.
Yeah.
Um, I think every, even getting through
a sentence without going into his Trump
isms, um, it's like, Oh man, just, all
right, stop telling us how great you are.
Like, let's just get to
the point and be punctual.
So I don't, I don't know, but I
think what we got to see is this is
a formidable opponent at the moment.
Yeah.
Um, because all people need to
know from, if you're a hardline
Democrat, all you need to see is,
oh, they can construct a sentence.
Great.
Arun: Yeah.
I think it's going to be
really interesting to see.
There's a lot of, If you're also on
conspiracy Twitter theories, you know,
there's a lot of stuff going where all
of her rallies, all of the stuff that the
polls are pushing, it's very much, you
know, fabricated to get her numbers up.
So now where it becomes group think
and people start thinking, Oh, maybe
she is actually a good candidate and
the numbers are looking very close now.
So it's going to be a very tight race.
It was looking like a
landslide going in, but.
Ps Adam: Yeah, I think I
think it was definitely gonna
be a landslide with biden.
Yeah Um, but they did pull a hot swap and
at the end of the day, I mean, it's it's
got to come down to america moving away
from This this party line thinking and
think really objectively around policies.
What kind of america
do you want to live in?
Um, and if if I think honestly if
people decide if the mass Populous
of voters if it's a fair election.
Yeah, okay If it is a fair election.
And we, we go down, uh, okay, the
way that the election, uh, is, is,
is, is won and lost in regions.
If each city comes together and
they're like, Hey, we don't care about
invaders coming through our border.
We don't care about these things.
All we care about is niceness
or the first female president.
Like that should not be a sentence.
It's not like that.
The president, I don't believe should be
a representation of a diversity thing.
Like, Oh, we've never
had a female president.
Let's see how that goes.
No, that, that, that really
doesn't make sense to an argument.
What it should be is Hey, those
policies and that type of thinking
is the America I want to live in
regardless of what they dress like,
look like, act like, sound like.
Um, and unfortunately, What matters to
me doesn't always matter to everybody.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I'm aware of that.
Mm-Hmm.
. Uh, so I just think that that's,
unfortunately, whether we like it
or not, the America we are going to
live in is what everyone chooses.
Arun: Yeah, I agree.
And I actually think that, that segues
really nicely into what I wanted to chat
about on this podcast, and it's, um,
called this thing called Founder Mode.
And so Paul Graham Yeah.
Talk to me about that.
Yeah, so Paul Graham, he's a founder
of Y Combinator, he made a blog
post about, um, these two distinct
modes, founder mode and manager mode.
And so essentially founder mode.
is the visionary.
I think you would consider
them the visionary.
They're the ones that are, you
know, they come up with the idea.
They're the ones that are
hands on at some point.
But then typical, I think business
savvy or culture would say at some
point you then need manager mode.
The people that will come
in to hire the right people.
The founder will be kind of displaced
from like day to day kind of operations.
Um, and so he I think posited both
modes and then said that there's some
balance that you need to have, whereas
going straight to manager mode, you
kind of lose some of the vision and
it kind of watered down some of the
motivation that was started to like
for like a startup, whatever it was,
and you end up kind of maybe dying out
or you have the visionary that Stays
on too long and then you just never
scale and it kind of dies out and you
need that business operations to really
set your company up in the right way.
So, um, it's interesting to think about
because you started a church and then you
started many other churches after that.
So you've kind of went from founder mode
to manager mode, or maybe you haven't.
So I'm curious to see, you know,
where you think you are in that
cycle, how you started and then, yeah,
Ps Adam: I think given that
description, I'm still.
I'd very much still be
in founder mode for sure.
I think, uh, given that description, I'm
just trying to think of CEOs that match
the manager mode versus the founder mode.
I would say Elon is still founder mode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, he's, he's gritty.
He's breaking ideals.
He's inventing new philosophies
around how to start businesses.
And, uh, he's very aggressive.
Um, I think if I've church, we're
still very much in founder mode,
uh, I'm involved at multiple layers.
I don't think people realize how
flat we are as an organization
because I'm touching a lot of things.
Well, I think a founder mode means a
founder is still involved, not just
in a finance meeting, but a product
meeting and a, uh, event meeting.
And how does it feel in the event?
What slides going up?
What songs are we singing on Sunday?
Uh, and, uh, I think when you
progress beyond founder mode,
it's like, well, you've got a
team that do the song selection.
You've got a team that,
uh, run campus launches.
You've got a team.
No, I'm still there at the launch.
I'm still there in the, in
the setup to the launch.
I'm still planning every
interest meeting worship night.
The, so, so for, and for us, that's the
season that we're in, uh, with being
humble, it's because there is a specific
way I'm trying to build the church.
And, uh, even reinvent.
So, so even the way that we're moving as
a church is away from a mainstream model
of church because God's spoken to me as
about a discipleship model of church.
And so that requires me
to be found a mode in.
Okay.
Can you
Arun: contrast those two, the
mainstream model versus the
model that you're trying to do?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: Okay.
Mainstream model churches,
event driven church.
Okay.
So it's like you have a series of
events that's driven by a brand.
Okay.
And so that brand is a more of
a mega church model where it's
like, well, there's that brand of
speaker and this style of church
and we do these cool events.
And then what you do is you
end up marketing to the church.
So it's like you market
this event to the church.
Now, unfortunately, there is a function
that drives that style of church.
That's not an intentional style of church.
It's a forced function of a lack
of revelation around the tithe.
Okay, so you think about when the, if, if
the church was to tithe, okay, in American
church, a right now, a healthy church.
American church, they would say
that up to 20 percent of the church
tithes.
Ps Adam: Okay.
That's meaning they've got
the principle of the tithe.
They're giving 10th of their
income to build the church.
They're a contributor.
If we take it away from a
church, let's call it a potluck.
Okay.
Out of, The hundred people that come to
the potluck, 20 people bring something.
Okay.
But a hundred people eat.
Okay.
So you know how fun that potluck would
be, you know, I mean, uh, that's why
when we do a potluck, we get everyone
to talk about what they brought.
Why, why did you bring that?
Right.
And then if someone didn't bring
something, it's really awkward.
Um, we should do that as a show,
but, but that 20 percent giving
doesn't sustain what we need to do.
Okay.
So it may pay for the electricity,
the toilet paper, all the things
like that mortgage, but it doesn't
allow us to put on a conference,
which is an acceleration moment.
Right.
In discipleship or, or a brotherhood
event, which is a deliverance
moment for the men or whatever.
So that means you have to charge
for those extra things rather
than just providing them as a part
of the journey of discipleship.
We have to charge and the moment we have
to charge, we have to make it an event
and
Ps Adam: then we have
to market to the event.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So we, the church becomes an event driven
marketing machine to its own people.
Arun: And that's not to their fault,
it's just kind of No, it's a by
product of poor revelation around
Ps Adam: tithing.
So if you go to South America,
think about the mentality of
a South American Christian.
This is not exactly right, but in
South American churches, about 80
to 90 percent of the church tithe.
And the reason they tithe is
because tithing is a superstition.
It's like a, you know, a Catholic,
you know, cross, you know, North,
South, East, West kind of thing.
It's like, yeah, but it's like, oh my
gosh, if I don't tithe, I don't want to
risk my business going bankrupt or my
family losing a leg or whatever it is.
It's like, I gotta tithe.
In America, our mentality around
tithe is completely different.
Most Americans see tithe
as a Christian tax.
And so because we're wired to avoid tax,
when I go on vacation, so does my tithe.
Because, well, I wasn't there.
Right.
What am I paying for?
You know, I didn't eat.
You know, all those kinds of things,
even though seeing it as a principle
of honoring the Lord for my income.
It's seeing as a payment for going.
So we've got these battles, right?
But if we did the biblical model of
christianity and we discipled Our people
and people actually were obedient to
christ saying hey The lord commands
us two things get baptized and tithe
honor the lord with the first tenth
of your income those two fundamental
things Would actually create even if
it changed A church from somewhere
under 20%, say up to 50%, we can move
away from being event driven church.
Whereas events that are still necessary
or classes or courses or groups, all
the tools would actually be prescriptive
for the church discipleship on how
do I take someone from where they
are to where they're going to be.
Our image, American image of discipleship.
If I said, are you being discipled?
You're going to go in your brain.
Well, when was the last time I sat down
one on one in a cafe with a pastor?
Yeah.
Ps Adam: No, that's not,
that's not discipleship.
Okay.
Think in life.
When do you have a one on one meeting?
I'll tell you it's with your doctor.
It's with your dentist.
It's probably with your chiropractor,
your accountant or your oversight.
And none of those you look forward to.
Okay.
Cause they're adjustments.
Yeah.
They're check ins.
Mm hmm.
Ps Adam: They're, they're,
how's your performance?
Mm hmm.
How's your health?
Mm
Ps Adam: hmm.
Those are necessary and we should have
them, but they're not a cute coffee date.
Mm hmm.
Ps Adam: That's like, no one ever says,
Oh, I get to go to see my dentist today.
No, I'm going to go because I need to.
And I think we need those health checkups,
but where discipleship happens best is
actually in a, in a, in a body format.
Interesting.
So let's think about group
connections, uh, uh, the gym.
Mm hmm.
Ps Adam: Um, when you go to a brunch,
when you go to one of these things
become the very model for this.
So it's rewiring the way we do it.
And how do we provide this under a
discipleship course for the church?
But it takes a major alter moment,
whereas the body of the church, we all
agree to bring a dish to the potluck.
Arun: Right.
So then would you say that you
scaled back or you thought about
when you were building the church,
it's like first principles.
And it was the first thing
that you have to do is that.
Discipline of tithe.
That is, yes, like core to what
it means to be a Christian.
And I
Ps Adam: would say baptism and tithing.
Arun: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But
Ps Adam: to be a Christian
means identify with Christ.
So I get baptized.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: Um, baptism doesn't
make you a Christian.
It's identity of a Christian.
So Jesus said, be baptized.
Like I was baptized.
Okay.
So it's, I'm identifying with Christ.
I'm going to be public with my faith.
Now I'm going to be obedient.
He says, why do you call me Lord,
Lord, but don't do what I say.
And then in Malachi, he says, you're
robbing me, you're a thief because
I've taught you about the tithes,
but you're still holding it back.
So I think to be a Christian is
to identify and do, to identify
with Christ and do what he says.
As hard as it is.
Okay.
You look at the great commission.
It's interesting because as the great
commission, he sort of like go into
all the world and make disciples.
Right.
But it says, it leads into that
sentence that Jesus gives the disciples
by saying, Uh, they went up to the
mountain where he directed them.
Okay, so they, they were following
what he said, even though some doubted.
And it's even in their doubts.
They were still obedient Even though
they didn't have the full revelation or
understanding of what jesus was building.
They still were obedient I think what
we've got is we've got a problem in
the church that people use the excuse
or pretend to not know enough To get
them out of giving and the hard things
and that's just not a christian.
Yeah, it just
Arun: really isn't Can I actually ask
you something something that i've?
I've, I've seen, um, like throughout
churches is that sometimes it feels
like people think that the pastor
is the one asking for the money.
Yeah.
And it's that.
They think the
Ps Adam: churches came up with the tithe.
Arun: Right.
It's like, that is the person
that you're answering to.
So then it becomes.
Oh, I'm saying no to the pastor or
I'm getting angry because the pastor
is coming to me for money Yeah, but
it's really it's God coming to you.
And then the pastor is just the messenger
Do you think it's maybe the I don't know
if it's like the way that we look at
pastors and maybe it's like we put There I
Ps Adam: think it's because the pastor
is the one that does the talking.
Arun: Yeah, right
Ps Adam: So the pastor is
presenting the hard thing.
Mm
Ps Adam: hmm.
I think it's the same as like, oh my
doctor wants me to take these tablets Why?
Because the doctor's like, this
is what's gonna make you healthy.
The doctor's like, well,
I'd love to be your friend.
I'd love that.
And I'd just say, have a
cigar and a whiskey everyday.
You know, but I know that's
not what's healthy for you,
so let me give you some pills.
Even though you don't like me.
That's the position of the pastor.
And I think most people, I don't
know where it came from, where it's
like, I don't want the pastor to
have money or something like that.
Or as if the pastor's taking the tithe.
Right.
Um, maybe what helps is more transparency
on what it costs to run a church.
Um, I think in California, just take
your own costs, you know, of your
own home, your own electricity, how
outrageous that is, and multiply
that by 80, 000 square feet.
You know, there's, there's, I think.
Normal, wise people can understand the
cost on what it is to run a church.
But I think, yes, you're right, a lot
of people go, Oh, this is like some
new modern church idea on to get money.
Right, right.
Ps Adam: No, it's a biblical, it's God's
plan for there to be food in his house.
And our job is to spiritually feed
the church But there is a practical
application to ensure that there's
food in the house I keeps coming
back to the potluck dinner because I
didn't really do potluck dinners until
I came to america But it was like
an eye opening moment because every
time you have a potluck people bring
Something that they're invested in.
They're like, Oh man, I have this
rice pilaf because this is my heritage
and this is what we do with it.
And then the next person goes, well,
I, I brought like, you know, butter
chicken pizza and it's a modern take
on Indian food, you know, whatever.
And everyone's super proud.
Yeah.
And how awkward would it be to go.
I just didn't feel like bringing anything,
Arun: but
Ps Adam: I'm still hungry.
So I'm going to eat.
Arun: Yeah.
And you got to ask why wouldn't
you like the people that did, it
was an act of love for the people
that you're going to commune with.
I can
Ps Adam: tell you why.
Cause you're either a
freeloader or a thief.
It's one of the two.
Arun: Right.
Ps Adam: It's like, I'm a freeloader.
Right.
I'm just going to consume.
Or I'm a thief
I
Ps Adam: want to steal because I know what
I'm meant to do But I just want to take
right
Ps Adam: and and the and this is why
it's problematic is because if people
stay in that consumer lane of Like
consuming they're not contributing.
Yeah, they end up being critics like
They're the people at the potluck saying,
Hey, you brought rice pilaf last time.
Right, right.
Would you like to add
Ps Adam: some pine nuts?
You want to try something different?
I've had that before.
Yeah, I've had that before.
I was like, okay, bro, what did you bring?
Arun: Or a little more salt next time.
Yeah, yeah.
But didn't bring anything else.
Exactly.
You brought donuts last time, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Ps Adam: But like, that's the problem.
We become critical and that's where the
church gets stagnant because instead of a
bunch of You have critics who then start
to try and poke holes in everything.
Arun: And it's, and you can be critical
because you haven't, and sometimes
it's because you haven't put the work
in to know what goes into doing it or
because you're not the one providing it.
Right.
It's easy to be critical when
you're not, but you can have
some grace and understanding if
you've been on that journey too.
Well, I've
Ps Adam: never
Arun: seen a contributor be critical.
Right.
Right.
Ps Adam: Never.
Arun: Yeah.
Or if they're critical,
it's very constructive.
Ps Adam: Well, yeah, but I wouldn't say
that's, that's, I wouldn't say it's like
a critic, like what I'm talking about
with critical is I'm talking about, um,
we should do this or that you should do
this.
Ps Adam: Every contributor understands the
heart behind it and they're appreciative
of it because they're invested in it.
Right.
Ps Adam: You know what I mean?
Right.
It's like everyone mocks Tesla.
I guarantee they don't have stock.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: Yeah, everyone who mocks Twitter
right
Ps Adam: doesn't have stock very good
point, but the moment you have stock
You're not talking bad about that product.
You're promoting that product
because you're invested in it
Arun: Yeah, so I should want
to touch on something there.
So you you touch on this idea of
transparency Yeah, and it kind of goes to
that, you know, the potluck example of you
know, when we get there Maybe everybody
should kind of go around So why don't
you think it is that churches are more
transparent when it comes to finances?
Obviously, it's you know You're
running it as a business.
Businesses aren't fully transparent
for some, to some degree about their
finances, but do you feel like churches
should be different or where do you
think that I think churches are?
I, I'm
Ps Adam: not sure.
I mean, not to the public,
but to the members,
Arun: which is probably the only people
that you should be transparent to really.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, the, the, the world doesn't get
to poke holes on where you send money.
Right.
Um, and the critics who aren't giving,
think you should send it all to India, um,
or something like that, not paying staff
and salaries and, uh, because if we, if
we just open it up to the wider public.
Then people start saying, well,
do, do, do staff really need
health benefits or whatever?
It's like, yeah, they're going to live.
I mean, yes.
Um, but at the end of the day, we.
Um, every church I know of is very
transparent between, to their members.
So members have access at any time to
just call the church and get the P& Ls,
uh, can, we do it once a year at Vision,
we do an open, uh, forum on, hey, this
is where we're at, this is where we've
spent money, this is where we've allocated
money, this is how we want with the
Vision, uh, and presenting a, a, uh, a
report, annual report, um, I think, For
me, it's always something I'm open I'm
more than open to because I think it is
a testament to how much miraculously we
do with the little that we get right,
right
Ps Adam: But I've never I haven't seen
a church that I know of who is hiding
Mm hmm
Ps Adam: finances
Arun: not from members,
right, right, right.
I think you usually hear it You know,
you've heard it with like Hillsong
and then you kind of after the scandal
comes out, then you kind of go back
and you hear all these things, but it
feels like if you're, you kind of need
it for the checks and balances, right?
Like you kind of need it.
Cause like, you know, anybody
can get corrupted, right?
Like if you, if you kind of just allow
yourself to remain in isolation, but
if you have these checks and balances
with your members of people that are
kind of a part of it, it I think that's
Ps Adam: important on the
leadership side of things.
I think on the giver side of things, you
can't let that be an excuse not to give.
If you've seen Hillsong, Oh,
we'll see, I told you they
came out and they're corrupt.
Well guess what?
You're still giving is righteous.
You're giving is still righteous.
And that's why it's the first principle.
It's the first principle.
It's not about where that dollar went.
It's the fact that you gave it.
Now they're judged, the leadership
of that church will be judged
heavily on what they do with it.
Mm hmm.
But guess what?
You, you're not the judge.
You're the giver.
Ps Adam: And so you still
get to honor the Lord.
But if you don't give because you've
got some moral dilemma, uh, that you're
making up as an excuse, you get judged.
Arun: Yeah.
No, you can't.
That's a very, very, very good point.
You cannot stop your giving because
you think, Oh, that person's not
going to do right by my money.
So now I have an excuse.
Or I feel like it should go here or I
Ps Adam: want it to go there.
Um, we have, I've had people in the
past say, Hey, I'm going to give this.
So it goes to that.
I'm like, cool.
Okay.
I can't guarantee you it goes to toilet
paper or it goes to that person's salary.
Right, right.
Do you know what I mean?
It's going
Ps Adam: into the
operations of the church.
Um, it's not like I'm going to give
that particular person a 10, 000
bonus because you wanted your giving
to go to that favorite person.
That doesn't work like that.
Um, what we need to do is we need to
provide, and I think it, it gets, I'm, I'm
more than open on being how transparent,
like the cost of running a church is, so.
Um, if you were to host a potluck,
let's go back to the potluck thing,
and it's not just bringing the
food, you provide the toilet paper.
And I keep saying toilet paper, we've
got a line item for toilet paper.
Yeah.
People are messy.
They need to wipe.
Right.
And, and that costs money.
Yeah.
To do that.
Right.
You know, I can't say do it at home.
On your own dime.
Yeah.
We're providing that.
So there are really practical things
that go into building the church.
Yeah.
So it astounds me too.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: That people can come,
love it and go, this is my church,
but oh, I'm not, I'm not going.
Arun: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually, just to stay on this topic.
Pastor Kira gave a
great message last week.
Oh yeah.
That was good.
About marriage and finances.
It was fantastic.
fantastic.
And I was thinking about that while I was
listening to the message about it kind of
feels like it comes down to communication.
It kind of, even within marriage, all
everything comes down to communication.
You got to make sure the other party
knows exactly what it is you're doing.
And it finally feels like you're on
your topic of like the potluck and.
And showing people how much
it costs to run a church.
Maybe that is the thing that
kind of opens people's eyes.
And it's like, Oh, really?
It's this is how it, how much work, not
just the cost, but the work it takes.
Because sometimes, you know, the
work is done behind the scenes
and it's not seen by anybody.
Yeah.
And then some people just
think, Oh, that just happens.
But it doesn't really happen.
I mean, if you
Ps Adam: think that, then
you're pretty stupid.
Yeah.
I just got to be like, if that's the
thing that gets you to tithing, well then
you're missing the principle of the tithe.
That's my problem.
I mean, it's not that we can't
be that transparent and just talk
practically, Hey, here's how much
it costs to run air conditioning.
Here's how much, but if that's the
reason you give, well then you're,
it's like you're chipping in.
Right.
Right.
Right.
But Jesus said, let's not do that.
Let's get a principle of the tithe so
that whether you earn tithe or not.
A million dollars a year, or
you earn 10, a 10th is a 10th.
We have equal share in this thing.
Arun: Right, right.
Okay.
So then, uh, actually this is
the point I was trying to get at.
I agree with that.
The 10th is that is your
discipline and your duty.
Right.
But I think if you were to enlighten
people on that side of things, maybe
that's how you get that, that, that.
giving above that and above and beyond
when now, you know, this is what it really
takes or maybe it's not just my money.
Maybe it's time now.
Now I need to serve.
This is where it's lacking, or this
is where I need to get involved in.
Oh yeah.
I mean, it
Ps Adam: bridges well beyond giving like
it's in serving talent, all these areas
that the church has these resources.
But you know how the church is going
to expand is from the people in
the church, which is which is the
church Uh giving of those talent.
Yeah that intellect that wisdom There's
other other gifts outside of money But
once you get money you get everything else
Arun: Interesting because
Ps Adam: the bible says that where your
treasure is your heart will be also so
if I get the heart Then what flows from
the heart is all these other areas,
you know, as well as in the church
Arun: Yeah I actually want to ask you
about something because one of the
things that when I first joined vive
that I took away was It was never
just come to the church take from the
church and leave It was always an ask
of what can you give to the church?
And this thing I probably loved most
about vive when I first got here was
that You would never just be able to
come to service and just leave no way
like there was such intention about
making sure that you Came to church and
that you gave to the church not just
financially, but your time and serving
Yeah,
Arun: that was really powerful.
Was that something that you
were very intentional about when
you were in your founder mode?
I guess not which is still
in yeah, I'm making sure that
is part of the core culture
Ps Adam: I think I've got a different
perspective of what Americans
viewed the church They viewed the
church as a service or an event.
Yeah, you turn up to service
But I see the church as life.
We do this a lot.
So there's an old school thing we
used to do in Pentecostal church
called fellowship lunch, where after
service, you'd hang around for lunch.
You know, you'd get the moms in
the church, they'd be cooking and
you'd hang out and you'd fellowship.
Well, sometimes the danger of
modern church is we so streamlined.
It's like get into the parking lot
early to get a parking space and get
out before everyone else queues you up
for two minutes, you know what I mean?
Or whatever.
Um, but we're not, we're
not, We're not hanging.
We're not talking.
We're not doing relational fellowship.
Like fellowship is a kingdom word.
It's like we're communicating,
we're talking, we're having
people know each other's lives
and celebrating with each other.
If your focus is, let me get into
the service and get out, uh, get
in last, get in at first, you are
missing so much of what the church is.
Okay.
You're treating it like a, like a
cinema show or something like that.
Uh, or I was saying the other
Sunday, it's like, cause there's all
these people that started to leave.
And I'm like, hang on guys.
The only time that we I've
seen anybody leave a football
game is when the team's losing.
And we're
not losing.
We're winning.
You know
Ps Adam: what I mean?
So why would you, why would you
skip out on the moment of altar
or the moment of ministry or, or
just even high fiving each other?
Man, wasn't that a great service?
Let's talk.
What's happening in your life.
It just means we've
got selfish Christians.
If your focus is to get out,
you're thinking of self.
And I'm really fed up with
self oriented Christians.
I want us to be community
driven Christians.
I want us to be focused on
how do I bless each other?
How do I build?
So if we're talking about founder
mode, I think every Christian
should be in a founder mode.
I think they should treat their
Christianity like a founder mode.
I'm building something here.
I'm a part of something.
Because founder mode CEOs produce
founder mode organizations.
Where everyone is in the
war room, everyone's gritty.
And the moment you go to management mode,
there's people that are disconnected
or they're doing nine to five,
they're checking in, checking out.
And that's the moment where people
start looking at their exit ramp.
Arun: How did you balance that?
Cause I feel like after, as I was
looking into this, I was reading the
blog posts Um, it was finding that
balance and it's everything you've
talked about is you found that balance
because to be able to scale to the
point where you scale by church, you
do need some semblance of management.
You can't just have everything be
done by you or by yourself, right?
So how did you find that balance of
making sure the right people were in the
right place to do the manager stuff or
maybe the operational stuff, but then
still have your vision kind of be there
throughout or have your hands on the right
areas where they were supposed to be?
Ps Adam: Yeah, I think for me, it's,
it's, I don't think I have any managers.
Okay, cool.
Ps Adam: And talk about that.
Yeah.
I think I give everybody the ability
to be a founder within that area.
Like to be a, at least an
engineer, a cultural engineer
on what would it look like?
So I don't, I'm not telling my
youth pastors to paint by numbers.
I'm dreaming with
them.
Ps Adam: I'm drawing out their vision.
Uh, and, and even team captains
like, how can we do this?
What would it look like?
And I'm trying to draw out of them,
their founder mode for that department.
Not like, Hey, just, just do a, B and
C, you know, just make sure it's good.
Yeah, no, I'm like.
Let's get invested.
Arun: You know what I mean?
Do you have conflicts then of the
vision not being the one that you
set out for the church at large?
When you, cause like you think of
a founder mode as a visionary where
it may be their vision for a church
or their vision for that function
ends up diverting from yours.
Ps Adam: Well, this is the difference
between vision and culture.
So if you, so it's the CEO's job to
paint a vision, but if you build a
culture strong enough, everybody in
that culture will have a similar vision.
They'll have a vision that is bigger,
a vision that isn't safe or small, a
vision of excellence, for instance.
So if our culture is excellence,
then whatever vision will,
will replicate excellence.
Okay.
So if I, let me give
you a classic example.
Okay.
I say, Hey, Arun, uh, you
know, you and Shilp's have
been coming by for a long time.
Um, I see you kind of dip
out straight after service.
I'd love to get you on team.
And you're like, sweet, man.
What, what do you want us to do?
I'm like, I'd love you to set up coffee.
Can you be in charge of the coffee?
So I'm trying to go super small.
Set up the coffee station and you could
ask me, uh, what do you want me to do now?
Manager would go, Hey, could you put
coffee and tea, maybe set up a table,
make it accessible for everybody.
And
Ps Adam: guess what?
You'll go and do exactly that.
But if you say, Hey, what
do you want me to do?
I was like, well, what do you think?
And
Ps Adam: you go, well, I know at Vive
we do everything with excellence.
So what if we don't just have
a coffee table, what if we
have a coffee experience?
What if we, we have like
different, what if we pour over,
right.
Ps Adam: And espresso and
some tea and maybe we do a
tablecloth and a little candle.
And what if we actually have someone
there talking about where the beans are
from and how that impacts this region.
And we do like, you know, farmer friendly
kind of coffee because that's really
in line with the mission or whatever.
All of a sudden because the culture
of excellence that you're already in,
I've allowed you to be a visionary.
So now you've got a better experience.
You've been a founder now.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: Not a manager.
Arun: Interesting.
That allows for a lot of ownership.
Yes.
You can transfer a lot of ownership over.
Yes.
So how do you, how did you then do that?
Because now it seems like.
The pressure is on you to pick
the right people for sure.
But I think
Ps Adam: you, okay, let's, I
think a healthy application
would be manager or owner mode.
That's biblical.
Arun: All right.
Let's talk about it.
Cause actually on this topic, because
founder mode has been getting memed
all across like Twitter and everything.
I think it's because this is not some new
kind of concept or anything like that.
But somebody writes an article and
now you have two different names that
will have to fit their way in kind of
like astrology science or something.
So let's just talk about it.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Owner mode.
Let's go.
Ps Adam: Well, I think that's
what the Bible says is owner mode.
Or manager mode.
And he talks about the
manager or the owner.
You know, there's a mentality to go, am I
just going to manage what God's given me?
Or am I going to own the kingdom
and I'm going to bring increase?
Okay.
So the manager just keeps and manages
and returns what they were given.
It's like the parable of talents.
The manager buried it and returned it.
Okay.
The owner, he took it, he multiplied
it and he gave back more because
he's in that founder mode.
I'm going to increase what I'm given.
I think that's in the church, right?
If I give you a task, I'm looking
for people who aren't just going
to give me back the task, but
who's going to grow that thing.
And so I'm looking for leaders
who can grow the area, not
just manage or maintain.
Arun: Yeah.
Okay.
Then that's actually really interesting.
When you talk about in the
church, when you're managing, um.
But what
Ps Adam: a great compliment, right?
Arun: Yeah, it really is.
Like
Ps Adam: a compliment is
to expect more from you.
Yeah.
If I, if I said, Hey, Arun, um, you
know, here's, here's the podcast.
I'm not looking for us
to grow any subscribers.
Right.
Let's just keep it the way it is.
Let's just keep
it
Ps Adam: small.
No, that would be a poor
expectation on your skill set.
But because you're a skilled
person, you kind of want a target.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: Like compliment
me with growth expectation.
That's
Arun: a compliment.
Do you find it hard for some people
to then take that or like they see
this responsibility of something
that's so important to build for
God's kingdom where they're saying,
I just don't want to mess it up.
I just want to keep the
path going as it is.
And how do you get them to break out
and say, no, you can make mistakes.
You can kind of try and.
Achieve something that may fail.
It possibly may fail.
You may scale so hard that it may fail,
but you kind of balance it in that way.
Ps Adam: So what you do there is you frame
the kind of mistakes that are acceptable.
Okay.
Cause there are some mistakes
that are unacceptable.
Uh, mistakes made from laziness,
mistakes made from oversleeping and
not turning up on time, those kinds of
mistakes are not learning the lyrics
for a worship team member or the chords.
That's not acceptable mistakes
because that was poor diligence.
But the mistakes on the other
side of stepping out and trying
something man, they're more than
acceptable And that's the culture
that you want to create is like man.
Let's try it.
Let's try something Let's do something
that's bold and outrageous And you know
like a billboard And maybe it didn't work.
Nobody came.
Well, at least we tried it.
You know what I mean?
But it wasn't from poor
management of time or poor ethics.
Arun: Yeah.
So there's, there's an example that
was given that I was reading online.
It was, um, Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos.
Have you seen?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So she was the example of a
visionary that went too far.
Like she was the one that never
got the manager mode or never,
you know, kind of deliver, right.
But she was so locked
into the vision, right.
And she was compelling and
she wanted that vision to be.
that she did everything to get to
that vision where she kind of lost.
You need to go through certain steps
to be able to get there and maybe
it's slower and steady, but like,
Ps Adam: yeah, so well, like the
element of substance, substance
is actually what makes what you
say have weight and believable.
Okay.
So over the years you have to build a
track record of substance of delivery.
Okay.
So what makes a valuable founder?
Is someone who's delivered on different
levels and go, well, man, if he's
delivered 10 years, each year in a
row, man, I'm going to invest more.
I think that was a shame on the
investors because they invest in
someone who never delivered anything.
And so what's the substance
behind what they say?
Every word has weight depend
on what you you've done.
Okay.
And so.
Uh, I just know this because of being who
I am as the lead pastor in the church.
If I say something compared to
maybe even my youth pastor, Ben,
it comes with different weight.
Yeah.
Okay.
Mainly because of the position and
the leadership and the substance
of what we've brought in the past.
Okay.
And he's a great guy of great
character and great substance,
but he's growing in that.
Um, and you, you add to that.
I go all the way back to year one when we
launched a vision and no one believed it.
Why should they?
We hadn't done anything yet.
It was just a really cool idea.
Um, but the few who were the progressive,
risky, you know, investors of the church,
talking Vance and Kim and different people
like that, Carly, uh, these guys were
so radically invested that they saw it.
Okay.
Even before we had any
proof in the pudding.
So most people aren't like that though.
I think sometimes you have to have more
substance before it makes it believable.
Arun: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually, that's a very interesting
point about being the visionary that
can kind of, you know, cast that vision
on people that can kind of take it in.
Or do you need to find the people that
are kind of like the risk takers that
are more receptive or it's like, do you
feel like you can kind of, I think you
have to find both for different seasons.
I mean,
Ps Adam: like, let's think of
the greatest founder that we know
in our generation, Elon Musk.
I mean, if he's to launch anything
now, no one's doubting, we're just
like in, you know what I mean?
It could be, you know,
replacement eyeballs.
Mechanic eyeballs are going to be better.
Wait, that's funny.
I think that was a thing I just saw.
I think that's actually coming out, yeah.
But it doesn't matter.
But even back like PayPal days when
he's launching the roads to the Tesla.
Yeah.
Skeptics.
Yeah.
Everyone was skeptical.
Because why he hadn't
really built much yet.
Um, but it's the same guy and so
he, cause he's delivered on SpaceX.
I like the way that
Arun: you and Pastor Vance talked about
it last week or a few last podcast about
that kind of, the future is lonely.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's very lonely in the future, but
you need somebody that's willing
to kind of be in that space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've got to
Ps Adam: forge a path for
people to see the path.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: And so when you're hacking
the way through the forest, um, it
doesn't, there's no one up there
swinging the machete with you.
Yeah.
You're the one taking the hits.
But everyone gets to follow
Arun: afterwards.
Can you, actually, maybe this
might be really useful for people
out there that have been, maybe
they're in that visionary mode.
The visionary mode is very hard.
It's not the place that you want to be.
It's like, it kind of goes
to the main character thing.
It's like, you don't, you're
not the main character.
You don't want to be the main character.
You think you want to be the main
character, but you really don't.
You really don't.
But like, as you've gone through this
season, you've had many visions that
you've kind of gone through vision
seasons that you've gone through.
Yep.
Um, there's obviously been some that
haven't hit, you know, like you expected.
Have you ever had to fight, maybe
that internal talk of maybe that's
not the vision that's for the church,
or maybe I need to scale back.
Oh,
Ps Adam: every time.
Yeah.
Arun: Talk about how do
you get through that?
Cause that seems so difficult.
Failure seems like that would be the,
the kibosh on any future vision almost.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Um, I think it's the
way you process failure.
Okay.
Is failure the defeat or is failure
a lesson and there's great learning
in failure on, on what failed.
Was it me?
Was it my communication?
Was it, uh, the speed?
Uh, or was it the economy?
What was, what was the
factors that go into failure?
And if I can analyze failure like a
lesson, I'm actually going to draw the
elements needed to be better as a leader.
And so I think for, for me, for sure,
there has been, um, I think even in, in
different levels of failure where maybe
we didn't, uh, get the vision funds
in all the way or something like that.
I could definitely look at it and
go, Oh man, people aren't with me.
Right.
I have a, maybe founder mode is not
like manager mode would probably
be, uh, let's just, let's just call
it, you know, manage this down.
Uh, a founder mode is like, okay, cool.
What do I have to do better?
And it's almost like, you'll know
if you're a founder, if you find
a brick wall and you take a run
up, not like analyze the wall.
You know, sit there describing
all the wall probabilities
of penetrating the wall.
No, just take a big run up and
go, how, what speed do I need
to pick up to get this through?
And I think that that's, that's probably
the differential between a founder
and a manager, an owner and a manager.
Arun: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly
the way it's described is that moment.
And then he talks about Airbnb as
one of his case examples and how.
The traditional, um, manager mode
would have said, you know, kind of
find out that layer below you, let them
kind of scale the business out, but
really what it was is that you need
to be the one that's moving quickly.
You need that's running up the wall,
making those mistakes, running again,
going for it because you need to be
able to, if you're breaking ground,
not if you're doing the same thing
everybody's been doing, if you're breaking
ground, you need to be almost breaking
yourself a little bit in these kind of.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Okay.
I'll give you Braveheart as an analogy,
uh, a founder leads from the front
and manager leads from the back.
So when, when, uh, um, William Wallace, he
went into battle, he led them into battle.
He charged the battlefield.
This is a founder starting a new
movement, rallying troops, but the
English, um, I can't remember the name
of the English guy, but, uh, He would
sit at the back of the battle, never
get his hands dirty, but sending in the
troops and sending in, that's a manager.
You know, I'll lead from the back.
I'll lead from comfort.
I'll allocate things.
I'll set tasks.
I'll set these things.
That's a manager.
A manager leads from comfort from the
back and what makes them protected.
A founder puts everything on the line.
Arun: And I think that that's
the other distinction is the
manager isn't pushing the vision.
No, the manager is just pushing.
Yes, for sure.
And so if you go into manager mode too
much, and I think this is the biggest
thing that people are talking about, is
that you lose vision along the way, right?
And you can't lose vision if you want to
accomplish what you want to accomplish.
Exactly.
And how did you, how did you go through
that with, uh, with Vibe Church?
And like, how do you see the future if
you had to look through the next 10 years?
Obviously, you know,
you're so hands on now.
Yeah.
Do you see a future in which, You're
Ps Adam: really trying to get stuff
out of me, aren't you, Vision?
I can tell.
Arun: Before the podcast,
he told me no Vision.
No Vision.
No Vision talk.
No, I
Ps Adam: can't talk Vision yet.
We're, we're four weeks away from Vision.
You gotta be there.
At the time of this recording.
Yes.
Um, say the question directly again.
Let me,
Arun: it's not about Vision.
If it did seem like
that, it's not about it.
But like, in 10 years, if you
look forward, at some point you
do have to, you know, maybe go.
Let's call it founder manager mode,
where it's like now it's fully,
you can't be at every church lunch.
Let's say things go well.
You can't be at every I foresee a day
Ps Adam: when I have to move into
manager mode because then I would lead
through the next generation of founders.
Exactly.
Arun: So do you see a signal or something
that you're looking for that would
tell you, I think this is the time.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
I think for me, I'm definitely
setting a goal, uh, a goal
from where can I run hard?
What can I sprint to?
And is that 10 years?
Is that 15 years?
Uh, is that 20 years?
What would be the right time to
set this up with a health and an
energy that will be only Taken over
by maybe someone who's half my age.
Yeah, if that makes sense And so I think
it's it's really at the level where the
culture is so strong that we've built
up founders within the organization that
are continuing the next level of Yeah.
I think
Arun: this was a, was a really
good kind of chat about, you
know, finding that balance.
And I think just from talking to
you, it's, it feels like you just
found that kind of naturally.
It wasn't something that
you really thought about.
Does it, would this come naturally to you?
Was it conversations with other people,
seeing maybe your mentors kind of do it?
Ps Adam: No, I think it was just an
essential force function, you know, of
starting something, starting the church.
When we started the church, I didn't
know anything about like a startup, Plan.
I didn't know, I didn't
know I was a founder.
I didn't know it was just, I was just
going to get things started and scale.
And so at every stage looking back
and do I like what we're scaling?
Is this what I want?
10 more of a hundred more of, is this,
is this what we like, um, and making
the right iterations so that whatever
we grow, we, we still enjoy and we still
like, um, and very much scrappy trying to
get things through, uh, at every stage.
To present excellence and
present the best we can.
But at some times it's just
being the best with God.
Arun: Right.
Did you take some of the principles
from like Silicon Valley, building
a startup and those business kind
of practices to the church, or did
you, it was just kind of stuff that
you've seen, um, I would say, I would
Ps Adam: say for sure, especially like
I was talking to this hype in London
just last week, uh, I, I sat before them
and I, I was like, cause I was talking
to British people who approach, um,
Something like a hype network or hype
membership from a different perspective.
Okay.
And I use this example as an Australian
coming into the Silicon Valley.
I learned some lessons in Silicon Valley
world, the ecosystem of Silicon Valley.
I learned to think bigger.
I learned to think faster.
I learned to stop limited thinking.
Okay, everything's possible So in
Australia if I had an idea the first
person I tell would be critical In
the silicon valley, the first person
I tell is is celebratory, right?
They're like,
yeah
Ps Adam: Um, but in Australia nah, and
so I came from like a very uk british
mentality, which is You know, tall poppy,
cut them down, bring them back to reality.
You know how hard that's going to be.
But in the Silicon Valley, there was
a, an era, like an era of optimism,
Arun: right?
Right.
Problem solving.
It's like, Oh, cool.
That's something we could let me help.
Yeah.
Let's join in.
Wow.
Ps Adam: What a great problem.
Um, and I think I was, I was
just talking about this in
the realm of hype memberships.
You could be, if I talk about a membership
in, in the Silicon Valley, people sign up.
They're like, man, there's an
opportunity for me to scale up
and learn from other people.
Done.
In the UK, it's more like, well,
what do I get for my money?
And
Ps Adam: it's like, well, I could, I can
Piecemeal out every little benefit you
get But you're missing the power component
of the potential that comes with being
in an orbit of other people, right?
So I think it's a different approach
in the silicon valley that i've
learned That I think unlocked
for sure this idea of bigness
Arun: Yeah Have you had an issue
now that you know the church has
kind of gone global and like we've
talked about the different cultures
in different parts of the world
Translating that, how you build a church
here versus how you build a church.
Have you had any issues with that?
Absolutely.
Yeah, definitely.
Any stories you can tell?
Ps Adam: I mean, I mean, just going
into, uh, let's talk about Italy.
Okay.
So Italy is very much a generation,
like a culture where you just, I
mean, you do what your dad did.
Okay.
So pioneering something
new, um, is different.
Uh, the way they approach taxes is
a very socialist, uh, system there.
So it's like, I don't want to earn
too much cause then I pay more tax.
And that's like a crazy idea that I
want to cap my income because I don't
want to go into the next tax bracket.
American mentality is, well, let me
blow through that tax bracket and
figure out how to actually avoid the
taxes because I want to earn more.
Whereas it's like, Oh, I'm happy just to
be a, I mean, you go to Italy and you'll
see a educated 45 year old gelato guy.
He's working in his parents
gelato store at 45 years old
happy Well, this is what you do.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Ps Adam: it's like well, hang on
bro Let me get a vision for starting
a company or building something.
This is not even in the paradigm And so
I think it's it's now that translates
into the church when we start new
initiatives and we want to think bigger
It's met with skepticism and, you know,
those kinds of things and, uh, it's,
it's, it's different challenge for sure.
Arun: You know what?
I think that also touches
on the founder mode.
I think it's that aspect inside of
you of wanting to see that, that's
just a problem that you can go solve.
And that's why you need to
be hands on in that area.
Right?
Well, I've always put it this
Ps Adam: way.
Capacity.
Capacity.
Capacity.
is a measure of complexity.
How much complexity can you handle?
That's what determines your capacity.
So how much capacity do you have?
How much capacity do I have?
It's how much complexities we can handle.
And everything is just a
different level of complexity.
Some things are more complex and
some things are less complex.
But what I got to do is Most people
will see a big problem and they
back out rather than just analyzing.
Well, this is complex,
but I'm a complex person.
So let me start to de complicate this so
that I can actually bring great solutions.
And it's not getting emotional.
I think as a founder, you can't afford
to get emotional in the wrong way.
I think you have to be passionate.
And so direct your energy and your
emotion towards passion, but D
Emotionalize the problem solving
and make it very analytical.
Arun: And
Ps Adam: that's how you actually
increase capacity to expand.
Arun: Yeah.
And I think I want to just make
sure to clear up any confusion.
Cause this is something that
people have thought about.
It was that if you're the
founder mode, you're very lonely.
It's just you and the problem, but
really that's not what it means.
It's finding the right people.
Like you said, I find other founders.
I find key technical people in
these areas, not to be managers.
Yeah.
But to be that almost running
the race by your side, and
now you're running together.
Exactly.
I
Ps Adam: think you, yeah, I think
within your organization, you find
those people, I think in networks,
that's why we, that's actually the
heart behind why we started the hype
mob, uh, and having that membership
is so that founders can actually get a
community of other faith founders who
are doing exactly what they're doing
with a different product, maybe in a
different ecosystem, but they're like
learning from each other and that's.
What I love about it is
actually real friendships form.
People are making real connections.
They're visiting other countries
to see their fellow hype members
and, uh, celebrating each other.
And it's, uh, it is a beautiful
community that doesn't have to be lonely.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: Um, I think it can be
lonely if you want it to be.
Um, but it's not you against the world.
God allows you to build a team.
Arun: Yeah.
And I think that's, um, going into the
potluck example, that is that, right?
Yes.
It really is.
You're bringing all these ideas together
and now what you bring to the table,
somebody else can kind of consume
from, and then that can kind of.
Well, that blesses you, right?
Yeah.
Ps Adam: You know, the best thing is
when your, when your casserole dish
is empty at the end of the potluck.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: There's nothing more
depressing when yours is still full.
Arun: And everyone wants to be the guy
that brings vegetables in, but nobody eats
Ps Adam: it.
Why would you do that?
I mean, if you're a real good potlucker,
you're thinking, man, I'm bringing
the best thing that runs out first.
Arun: Yeah.
That's gotta be the mindset.
You've
Ps Adam: got to have that mindset.
And yet, why don't we bring this
to the church or why don't we
bring this to our organization?
Bring the best that gets eaten up first.
Arun: Yeah.
If you want to progress,
that's the best way to do it.
If you want to be seen,
that's the best way to do it.
Don't complain, don't get critical.
No.
Bring your best.
Yes.
It will always be seen.
Of
Ps Adam: course.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: Yeah, that's
founder mode right there.
Arun: That is.
Ps Adam: I call that owner mode.
Yeah, I like owner mode.
Ps Adam: I
like owner mode
Ps Adam: because I mean,
the founder is the owner.
Um, I mean, I know in a modern company,
you've got the board investors.
Uh, but I think the, the, to
own the vision, nobody owns
it more than the founder.
And so we're just scaling
ownership from there.
I think the manager is not that
invested beyond their paycheck.
Arun: Yeah.
I love it.
I want to cap it there actually.
It's a great podcast.
Thank you for kind of
going through the journey.
One on one.
This is actually one of the ones
that I wanted to do for a while.
Just an interview, kind of go
through your story and stuff.
But I think it was very educational.
Appreciate it.
I love it.
And next time we do a one-on-one,
it's gonna be all conspiracy theories.
So
. .
Ps Adam: We need a couple
hours for that one.
Yeah, a couple
Arun: hours.
That one's gonna be
exclusive for hype members.
Are you
Ps Adam: gonna let everyone know
you've got a little flippy phone now?
Oh yeah.
We gotta talk about it quickly.
Just tell if you're
Arun: on video.
Google Pixel nine.
Look at this.
The Pixel nine Pro Fold F.
Wow.
Don't need an iPad anymore.
It's called a F.
It's, I think it's, oh, you call it
a fab, I call it, but a phone tablet.
I think it's gonna be
people when I was, that's so
Ps Adam: gay.
A phablet.
That's a fabulous tablet, man.
That's, come on.
Come on.
Are you really going to
start waving that around?
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Arun: I think
Ps Adam: that's what,
Arun: yeah, phablet.
I
Ps Adam: think that's what
it's going to be called.
Oh my god.
There's one reason not to buy it.
Arun: Alright, well, also PSA,
if you're on iOS, Go get iOS 18.
Oh, I did it.
You did it.
And then now enable RCS and now
your Android friends, your iOS,
we're all going to be friends.
You're going to still see green bubbles.
I don't know.
Apple still wants you to hate
them, but I'm not going to see
Ps Adam: duplicates of everything.
Arun: No, the reactions
are all going to be right.
It's going to look really good.
Yeah.
Let's go.
The world is healing,
Ps Adam: but we're
still going to be green.
Just, yeah, we're still going to be
Arun: green.
Just so you know, still the enemy.
Apple's smart.
Well, it's a great podcast
and it's a good conversation.
Cheers.
Bless you, buddy.
